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Concept'air 12m Pulsion kite

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Regis-de-giens
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:24 am

The fish eye effect of the gogro disturbs the image. Kite actually uses its a large window, afterward there may be less pull too much loss of speed when turning at the extreme extreme window. I could have widened a bit , Which I do now in less wind (Wind was also "high enough" to allow not optimizing the kite trajectory, otherwise I get too much pull, specially in strapless). But I admit it is difficult to deduce from video and not having the bar tension in your hands as parameter. I tried what you said, sometimes uses it in low wind but not marginal like when pulsion hardly flies : not enough power (but this might be kite depend even i do not think so much).
at 4:10 as I said I was not balanced correctly on the board and it led to pulling too late on the rear hand, so it went too horizontal and should have not passed the zenith or maximum 45 degree frontward instead of 90 degree here; it unfortunatelly required 1/4 more turn before benefit of the downloop acceleration, so I lost a bit of kite speed. Wind was enough to cover for this error but in even lower wind I would have to re-do it from scratch.

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jumarcil
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby jumarcil » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:14 pm

PullStrings wrote:
jumarcil wrote: There was no wind, i tried the 12m
When you write there was no wind does that simply mean that you could not have gone out ?
Looking at your gear you have listed 11 sqm as your biggest kite. Is that correct and a raceboard ?
So how much wind would you estimate there was ? In your opinion would an expert foilboarder been able to go up and ride right there and then when you tested the kite on land ?

Pikovsg (not an expert-started kiting last year) claims in around 6 mph he jumps 15.8 feet high with 6 seconds airtime on his foilboard + new 12.....do you believe that ?

:D
When I say no wind i mean no one would have tried to kite on that day. And actually I didnt expect much since the anemometer from our spot had a peak of 8 knots but the wind were oscillating between 6 and 8 . No way i would have taken my 11m and my race on that day.

I also would have liked my friend to do test his sonic back to back with the pulsion. Anyway, like i said if you have a achance to try one, they really did a great job on this kite.

Well as for jumping 15 feet in 6mph , i dont know 15 feet is a pretty good jump, but the night we tried it my friend was able to do some backroll riding with with his foil and the conditions were really marginals. One thing is sure it is an amazing kite.

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mig27
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Local Beach: Kijkduin, Scheveningen
Favorite Beaches: Brouwersdam, Slufter, Grevelingendam, Rockanje
Style: strapless hydrofoil and wave
Gear: Zeeko Notus5 5.5m
Flysurfer Speed 5 12m
Zeeko 2015 Pocket board
Zeeko 2016 Carbon freeride foil + racewing
Nobile woodskim 129x50 (with foil mast inserts)
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Location: Rijswijk, The Netherlands
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby mig27 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:38 pm

Since this thread has over 20 pages now, I must have missed something.
I apologize in advance 8)

I have a few questions:

1. Does the kite have valves in the wingtips to let out water and sand?
2. Does it have a zipper or velcro valve to let air out for packing at the end of a session?
3. Can the mixer be replaced? (unlike the Chrono V1 for example)
4. What's the weight of the 12m normal fabric with bridles and the lightweight fabric? (I thought 2400 versus 2200 grams?)
5. What's the AR?

Regis-de-giens
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Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:36 pm

20 pages justifies every reminder :D

1. There is one velcro at each extremity like most foilkites.

2. There is a 30 cm zip (same kind of "reverted' zip, like for moutain jackets) ; it is located on extrados, near (but not exactly at) the center cell ; so better to roll the kite with the "Pulsion" name on top, which puts (approximately) the zip at the end when rolling ; deflate speed is not its best feature, it is twice longer than FS Speeds but better than Aurora. I am thinking of improving it by rolling a 50 cm gym mattress and inserting it inside the central air inlet , then use it as a belt holding the kite in the bag ...

3. It is quite original on this point : there is one serie of 3 or 4 knots on the A bridle; ; the aim is to change camber depending on wind range to optimize pull vs performance. But no other settings on B, C or Z.

4. Both are lighter : 1750 gr for the light cloth, and approx + 300 grams on the normal fabric, I can ask a friend who bought one

5. AR is 5 for the 12m, and higher for the 15m

Feel free to call if you want to discuss before buying, in particular the use of a standard or custom bar rather than the bar of Concept'air in my opinion (Benoit can provide one if you have no bar, but agrees it is not as current standards, e.g. security on rear lines).

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mig27
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Posts: 750
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:54 am
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: Kijkduin, Scheveningen
Favorite Beaches: Brouwersdam, Slufter, Grevelingendam, Rockanje
Style: strapless hydrofoil and wave
Gear: Zeeko Notus5 5.5m
Flysurfer Speed 5 12m
Zeeko 2015 Pocket board
Zeeko 2016 Carbon freeride foil + racewing
Nobile woodskim 129x50 (with foil mast inserts)
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Rijswijk, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby mig27 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:05 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:20 pages justifies every reminder :D
Thanks for the answers, Regis-de-giens :thumb:
You have been a great help s0 far!

I am interested in buying one.
But still have doubts about if a 12m would be powerful enough for my under 70KG weight.

I ride the freeride and race (not tried jet) carbon hydrofoil from Zeeko.
And with my current FS Speed5 12m (2700grams, AR of 6.15, and still a rather deep profile (others may call it thick: the AR of the wing cord is not that high)) I had problems on 24m lines to come up step. That was in 5kn, where I had to steer the kite all the time to keep it airborn.

A lower AR sounds like: go for the 15m then!?
But you Regis-de-giens show me movies of lower wind speeds, and you are a bit more heavy I guess?
I rather have a smaller kite, where I find a 12m foilkite big enough for my freeride ambitions.

Regis-de-giens
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Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:25 pm

I appreciate your thanks . It is time consuming but with passion , every discussion is pleasant;

so, about 12m vs 15m ( without having tied the 15m):
- reminders : I am lighter than you with only 60 kg ; I use a large Ketos wing for light winds ; I have pretty good light wind ride skills ( :oops: I would never have said that if it was not to try be as accurate as possible, please forgive-me this pretentious assumption)
- compared to a Speed3 dlx (which should fly with approx same wind as Speed5, in theory but not tried), I can ride "easily" on water as soon as the speed 3 stays at zenith on the beach; I can go approx 1 knots lower but requires special technics for the waterstart; the Pulsion stays far better in the air, and this difference allows you to swim-out from shore and keep the kite at the zenith even with the 1 knot draft of deep water. its stability on front lines allows you to keep concentrated on the HF management
- hard to tell the impact of your wing size, but for your weigh and if you know how to waterstart-loop, I would guess that you will ride as soon as the S5 stays easily in the air on the beach, which I call 6 knots
- if you want to play with the elements and reach 4 or 5 , the 15m will do it, the 12m I can't tell with your configuration. Benoit Tremblay is 88kg and rides in about 6 knots from his reports.
- top end of the 12m is about 17knots I would say for me (no transverse rides at this high wind), so I would say 19 for you on a hydrofoil; my guess on the 15m would be 14 knots for you.
- both will allow you to ride "normally" from 6, but if you want high speed below 9 knots, 15m will logically go faster, in detriment of manoauvrability for transitions.
- for your weight I would bet that in term of comfort, the 15m is better up to 8 knots while above 10 knots the 12m is better (more agile and wider wind range).

So ... not sure to actually help you, but in a nutshell : if you are looking for absolute low end or speed and be ready to swim sometimes, go for the 15m ( and make a report ! ); if you want to freeride from 6 (or at least the same power as your s5 but with better zenith ability and agility for waterstarts and lulls, my guess) with a all-round and more fun kite that need to cover a large wind range and that still safely stays in the air for 4-5 lulls to come back to shore, go for 12m. A friend of mine, same weight as yours, bought the Pulsion 12m and confirmed he get more pull from Pulsion in light than S4 Lotus 12m and said he will increase + 50% its riding time vs Lotus since the 6-8 range is very frequent on his spot.

Mossy 757
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Mossy 757 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:31 pm

^great writeup!

The question with big foilkites isn't about lowend, it's about highend. They pretty much all hang in there in the low stuff, some better than others, but I'd be worried about where they get overpowered relative to the prevailing winds at my spot. That's why at my spot a 15m and 11m quiver is perfect for most days. The 15 rides up to 15kts and the 11 rides up to 20kts, but both kites will ride down to 9kts equally, so if the wind is blowing at all I can take either kite, but I'll go with the larger one whenever I can if I think the forecast gusts will be manageable.

That's a long-winded way of expressing an old sailor's saying:

"Rig for the lulls, deal with the gusts."

coleman
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby coleman » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:49 pm

Mossy 757 wrote:^great writeup!

The question with big foilkites isn't about lowend, it's about highend. They pretty much all hang in there in the low stuff, some better than others, but I'd be worried about where they get overpowered relative to the prevailing winds at my spot. That's why at my spot a 15m and 11m quiver is perfect for most days. The 15 rides up to 15kts and the 11 rides up to 20kts, but both kites will ride down to 9kts equally, so if the wind is blowing at all I can take either kite, but I'll go with the larger one whenever I can if I think the forecast gusts will be manageable.

That's a long-winded way of expressing an old sailor's saying:

"Rig for the lulls, deal with the gusts."
i'm also wondering about the pulsion vs s4 lotus along these lines......how will it handle the upper wind range. we often get 5-15kt+ days.....need to be able to handle some gusts up around 20 but also keep kite airborne in 5. the lotus does this well.....wondering if the higher aspect of it allows it to fly further into the window making it easy to handle higher wind. i can keep myself comfortable on the HF in 20+ gusts easily with the lotus 10m. whats the AR of the pulsion? and how does it compare to the forward flying characteristics of the S4 lotus?

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mig27
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Posts: 750
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:54 am
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: Kijkduin, Scheveningen
Favorite Beaches: Brouwersdam, Slufter, Grevelingendam, Rockanje
Style: strapless hydrofoil and wave
Gear: Zeeko Notus5 5.5m
Flysurfer Speed 5 12m
Zeeko 2015 Pocket board
Zeeko 2016 Carbon freeride foil + racewing
Nobile woodskim 129x50 (with foil mast inserts)
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Rijswijk, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby mig27 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:58 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:I appreciate your thanks . It is time consuming but with passion , every discussion is pleasant.
Thanks again for your detailed answer.
So we differ only 8 kilo's, which is good for low-wind performance :wink:

In despite I have a race-wing, I am not into racing.
I already found out that my previous foil (Zeeko Makaira freeride) had a better low-end (which means it had a lower take-off speed, the low-end is equal, but I need a bit more forward speed)

An average race-foil 15m already stays better in the zenith because of the better wing-load.

And as soon as I am foiling the size of the kite is not really important.
I even could go on a 8m wave LEI in 8/9knots already with the Makaira.

I feel still more interest for the 12m. And maybe in regular cloth anyway, since it is so lightweight already.
Mossy 757 wrote:^great writeup!
"Rig for the lulls, deal with the gusts."
Indeed the focus for race-kites is not the low-end due to the minimal wind-speed rule of 7/8kn for racing.
All foil-kites seem to get more heavy for better control.
Speed is everything, low-end is not.

Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:16 pm

I still have a Lotus 10m so I can compare, that I like a lot and was my dream beginner HF kite before Pulsion; AR of Pulsion is lower (5) but the heigth of the cells seems shorter and it has LE stifners, so to me approx same "upwind performance" (L/D ratio) , We are 3 people to feel a little better performance on Pulsion but I cannot promise.

I prefer the Pulsion on most every points for riding:
- better stability in gust, better high end with line extensions ( and same for normal line I guess)
- easier to keep in the air in low wind
- more agile hence fun
- allows longer line extension
- I ride with 2 knots less with the Pulsion for same line length. But my Lotus has 2m2 less than my Pulsion ; I think it it explains half of the difference only...
- easier waterstart due to turning ability
- One special feature that I love vs Lotus in high wind: when sheeted-out to depower, the Lotus (like S2 and S3 and many kites including LEI) had a tendancy to turn downward toward the sea surface. I hate this because it leads to more powerzoen, more speed dur to gravity, and you need to sheet-in a bit to change the kite direction to avoid touching the water. The Pulsion has the revert tendancy to go toward zenith, which maturally gives less power which is what you look for at that moment
- easier to prepare since far less wingspan
- easier to launch in low wind thanks to light weight and also Leading Edge stiffeners; more stability during inflation and more rapidly inflated.
- 3 pre-setting of speed system to optimise the lift or the performance depending on wind speed or objectives (not tested but good feedback of 2 users)

Comparative Drawbacks of Pulsion:
- a little more bar pressure (I love the lighter bar possible, Lotus is perfct for my weak arms); anyway I rode several hours with Pulsion with no pain and it is still lighter than LEI.
- longer deflation time
- on the Lotus cloth the sand slips wonderfully when rolling the kite in humid air
- adjustable speed system if it needs a re-setting


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