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How to be affective in Very deep powder.

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we
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Re: How to be affective in Very deep powder.

Postby we » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:25 pm

OP, are you flying the right kite size? You need power to get going. In hard pack conditions, you can get away with small kites even trainers. In deep powder, you probably need close to the same kite size as water kiting.

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Re: How to be affective in Very deep powder.

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:37 pm

geopeck wrote:One simple solution I'm going to try to make happen this winter - skis. I'm a shitty skier but when it's deep powder the ski guys in my spot are outfunning me for sure.
:lol:

There's a lot of truth to that.

For our first time students, even if they are dedicated snowboarders having never skied in their lives, we have them start snow kiting on skis. Often there is resistance but once they get out there and start learning they understand how much simpler it is. Then after they get their kite handling dialed, they go back to their boards but some stick with skis for the kite and board on the lift.

Without a purpose built snowkite board. (http://www.powerkiteshop.com/nobile-sno ... wboard.htm) riding snow with a board (or skis) on a kite has certain issues. Side cuts are a big one. You're using something to ride in a straight line that designed to carve turns when on edge. This causes the board to carve up wind if you drive the edge too hard. Fortunately on pow, the side cut and edge have less effect and you can run slightly flatter and rely on planing over edging. But this requires a board of the correct length and width. Not unlike choosing a board for water. A pow board is a bit like a light wind board in that you need it to plane easily to get the best performance.

Locally, we don't get a lot of powder. As a result, there are maybe only one or two snowboard riding kiters here. Skis are more practical. But many of our clients are water riders and going to a snowboard is a natural thing for them.

About the waxing. Snow kiting is about as abusive to skis and boards as you can get. It really is amazing what some of this equipment will tolerate given what the intended design was. We put a lot of miles, under constant load on our gear and it takes a toll on the life of your tune as well as the life of the ski/board.

Coming from a ski background, some of spent ski off piste, I've utilized some stuff from that in my kiting. Waxing for example. The problem with waxing snowboards is there are few snowboards that have sintered bases. Meaning carbon sint is impregnated into the Ptex. This carbon absorbs wax and releases it over time while in use. Skis generally have this. Boards usually just have extruded bases as a cost cutting measure. There's a lot of base on a board vs. skis.

If you have an extruded base, hot waxing (which is the best way to ensure you have a well waxed base) does little but put wax on the surface. The surface wax with a kite, wears off quickly. So carrying a rub on wax while you ride can be very important.

With a sintered base, one hot waxes and let's it set. Heat and time will induce absorption of the wax into the sint. The longer it sits, the better the absorption. Hot boxes are used for high end tunes and assist in this as you wax and store the ski in the hot box where it will be kept warm to ensure optimal absorption.

We do a tuning procedure we call "Base hardening". Essentially you do your first tune of the season with a super cold temp wax (waxes have temperature ranges, warm waxes for warmer snow and cold waxes for colder hard snow) and get it heavily absorbed into the base sint. Cold waxes are VERY HARD. Like plastic almost. This wax, in the base reinforces the ptex and makes it more resilient to random base strikes. Whereas a non-hardened base may gouge and rip an edge out, a hardened base will dent and slide. It also resists base burn which is that white oxidation that kitejumping mentioned. After we base harden we scrape the excess wax off and wax with whatever is appropriate for the conditions.

you could get into the whole base structure discussion as well but I'm sure at this point you guys are probably bored to death. :thumb:

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Re: How to be affective in Very deep powder.

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:43 pm

we wrote:OP, are you flying the right kite size? You need power to get going. In hard pack conditions, you can get away with small kites even trainers. In deep powder, you probably need close to the same kite size as water kiting.
Hard pack make everything easier. but kite size also depends on the air temp and elevation. A common mistake we see water riders make is they see the wind blowing 20kts and throw up the kite they use in 20kts on water. But cold air is much more dense and offers a lot more bang for the buck than warm winds.

Altitude is less of a factor unless you are riding much higher than you usually do. Higher altitude, thinner air. A kite in 20kts at sea level is going to be weaker at 4000m.

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Re: How to be affective in Very deep powder.

Postby kitejumping » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:44 pm

Hardwater Kiter wrote: The problem with waxing snowboards is there are few snowboards that have sintered bases. Meaning carbon sint is impregnated into the Ptex. This carbon absorbs wax and releases it over time while in use. Skis generally have this. Boards usually just have extruded bases as a cost cutting measure. There's a lot of base on a board vs. skis.

If you have an extruded base, hot waxing (which is the best way to ensure you have a well waxed base) does little but put wax on the surface. The surface wax with a kite, wears off quickly. So carrying a rub on wax while you ride can be very important.

With a sintered base, one hot waxes and let's it set. Heat and time will induce absorption of the wax into the sint. The longer it sits, the better the absorption. Hot boxes are used for high end tunes and assist in this as you wax and store the ski in the hot box where it will be kept warm to ensure optimal absorption.

you could get into the whole base structure discussion as well but I'm sure at this point you guys are probably bored to death. :thumb:
Another reason I really like the Jones ultra boards, Sintered 9900 Base :)

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Re: How to be affective in Very deep powder.

Postby waynepjh » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:06 pm

IMG_5581.JPG
Rig BIG so you are well powered and have a well waxed rockered board. Lots of good advice on here.

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Re: How to be affective in Very deep powder.

Postby matthepp » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:41 pm

Jeez Wayne, rub it in!
Only one thing beats slicing 2' deep troughs through trackless powder strapped to a lit 15m: soaring a few hundred feet down a slope and landing down in the middle of said trackless. I gotta get my work sorted so I can get out there asap!

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Re: How to be affective in Very deep powder.

Postby Anthonyshopguy » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:41 pm

Geopek I want to thank you for such an in depth answer to my query. I too am not a fan of skies, your analysis of the situation seems to be point on. I have not had a chance to try the larger board yet. Had a chance two days ago but a tangle in my lines cost me too much time before it got dark hate this time of year but it must be much worse in your part of the world. Thanks again good info and something to dwell on.

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Re: How to be affective in Very deep powder.

Postby Anthonyshopguy » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:00 pm

Hey Wayne totally sick. God I would love to have some turns like that! I have recently purchased a new kite to deal with the power issue that I feel plagued me last winter. 15M slingshot Turbine. Unfortunately I had a one on one experience with some volcanic rock about 3 months ago and had to get it repaired. 15M is a big step up from my frenzy 11 and I want to wait for prime conditions or have some much more experienced riders around to get advice from. I ride with my good friend Todd but we are both about the same level and of the two of us I'm the more aggressive. So I'll keep you all posted on how this progresses, man, I want to fly that new kite bad!!!!!! PS 6 more inches of powder on The Grand Mesa. It's a solid 36" of powder. I could really use some sunny days to harden that surface a little. 8)

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Re: How to be affective in Very deep powder.

Postby geopeck » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:08 pm

You bet, since it got the gears turning here's one more thing - just go straight to a beefy free heel ski. I can barely get down a hill on free heel skis - or more accurately I'm too scared to try. But with a kite you don't need that drop knee business, just activate the sidecut and you turn. You don't really loose anything stability wise because the kite is bracing you front to back.

Collapsible poles can go into the kite bag when the kite comes out so the whole program can be surprisingly clean. I do a few days every year on teles or back country classics and I'm always surprised that it is so easy - although I miss the levered turns of a snowboard.

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Re: How to be affective in Very deep powder.

Postby kitejumping » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:16 pm

Anthonyshopguy wrote:Hey Wayne totally sick. God I would love to have some turns like that! I have recently purchased a new kite to deal with the power issue that I feel plagued me last winter. 15M slingshot Turbine. Unfortunately I had a one on one experience with some volcanic rock about 3 months ago and had to get it repaired. 15M is a big step up from my frenzy 11 and I want to wait for prime conditions or have some much more experienced riders around to get advice from. I ride with my good friend Todd but we are both about the same level and of the two of us I'm the more aggressive. So I'll keep you all posted on how this progresses, man, I want to fly that new kite bad!!!!!! PS 6 more inches of powder on The Grand Mesa. It's a solid 36" of powder. I could really use some sunny days to harden that surface a little. 8)
Are you riding grand mesa this weekend? I could be up for a day trip down that way this Saturday, we haven't had much snow up in Summit County yet. My 15m is my favorite size, still floaty on jumps like my 18 but can handle higher winds.


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