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Is Shinn going to produce his own foil?

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Brian H
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Re: Is Shinn going to produce his own foil?

Postby Brian H » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:32 am

Hey Windsuks how about doing a review of the kite that you are riding . :D

Shinnworld2
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Re: Is Shinn going to produce his own foil?

Postby Shinnworld2 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:47 am

Hi Aleks,
When I posted before I was using aired in the nose of the 145 Jackson to reduce the weight however in testing one of my team riders broke the nose during a high speed touchdown and I didn't want to take a risk with the construction.
I have no problem with transparency so I put in this post pictures of the 120 Jackson, 145 Jackson and the deck pad all on the scales......these are board and pad only, not with straps and connecting bolts.
Jackson 120 with Pad - 3.95 kg
Jackson 120 without pad - 3.6 kg
Jackson 145 with pad - 4.45 kg
Jackson 145 without pad - 4.1 kg (this is 300 grammes heavier than planned due to the construction change)
Pad alone 350g

Of course it is nice to have a light foil board but more important is stiff (and strong).
IMG_9317.JPG
IMG_9318.JPG
IMG_9316.JPG

aleks
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Re: Is Shinn going to produce his own foil?

Postby aleks » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:39 pm

Shinnworld2 wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:47 am
Jackson 145 without pad - 4.1 kg (this is 300 grammes heavier than planned due to the construction change)
Thanks for posting all details about the boards Mark. However I have to disagree with you on the statement above. Since board comes with the pad permanently attached to it, why would you ever provide board weight without a pad?! It might work for Shinnster with pad sold separately, but not for Jackson :nono: . 650 grams (1.4 lbs) weight increase is a deal breaker for many people.

While I'm on the topic, I can write a short review of 145 Jackson board, maybe it will be helpful for some people. I rode it once for 2 hours in conditions from well powered to light wind.

The good:
Board bounces off the water like nothing else I tried. I felt like it was impossible to nose dive on it. I purposely drove it down, but it always went right back up.
Very solid board, feels like it is going to last and survive all conditions. I had doubts about durability of foil attachment slits, but after seeing them in person they feel unbreakable.
The width is perfect, and with raised sides it feels like it is much less likely to catch the water with side edge.
Surface jibes are no problem, it has enough flotation and surface area.
I really like the pad and its raised sides. You can fell the board better during jibes and less likely to slip off it.

The bad:
The weight. It weighs the same as 2016 Cabrinha double agent, which is a much bigger board. To be fair, it is not as noticeable while riding, but that is maybe because I'm used to Cabrinha weight already.
The nose is the same thickness as the main board (which is where the extra weight probably comes from). Usually nose is thinner on directional boards - not on Jackson. It gives it a bit outdated look. Even Cabrinha double agent with the same construction has thinner nose.
Straps attachment. It got worse from already odd configuration on Shinnster and El Stubbo. So many things, I have to split them into separate items:
Back strap has only one position for attachment (El Stubbo had 2). In spite of the pad having a hole for possibly 2 attachment positions, board has only 1 insert.
Back foot (in back strap position) is right over slits for foil attachment, out of which sticks out a big round metal nut. Naturally, those metal nuts are on both sides of the foot. They are flush with the pad, but not with the rest of the slit surface. As a result, you always have hard metal under both sides of your back foot, and you always feel it. Maybe you can get used to it in booties, but it would be uncomfortable barefoot.
Front straps have only one insert in the middle (again, El Stubbo had 3), so you are now forced to put 2 straps on 1 bolt if you want to have 2 straps up front.
2 Front straps are still more parallel to each than on ANY other board on the market (same as it was on El Stubbo), but with only one central insert they are closer together. With your foot in front strap, your toes almost always hit the opposite foot strap, which is pretty annoying.
Technically, there a 2 inserts/positions for front straps, but to give my foot a little bit more space I'm forced to attach front straps to outside inserts (giving it the widest possible strap attachment). That technically leaves only one position for the front foot straps as well.

Sorry that the bad list got much longer, it is really not bad board at all :D . It just takes more space to describe what I mean in bad section.

Anyway, I'm torn now. I was eagerly awaiting for the arrival of Jackson boards, hopping they would be durable but lightweight boards, perfect for jumping. Now I'm thinking about other options or exchanging for 120cm. Mark, would you be able to help me to exchange 145 for 120 without paying extra? As I said, I already used my 145 Jackson once (with straps), so it probably has straps marks...

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windsuks
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Re: Is Shinn going to produce his own foil?

Postby windsuks » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:22 pm

Brian H wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:32 am
Hey Windsuks how about doing a review of the kite that you are riding . :D
:thumb:
phpBB [video]

slowboat
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Re: Is Shinn going to produce his own foil?

Postby slowboat » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:09 pm

The good:
Board bounces off the water like nothing else I tried. I felt like it was impossible to nose dive on it. I purposely drove it down, but it always went right back up.
V

How different is this from the Shinnster?

aleks
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Re: Is Shinn going to produce his own foil?

Postby aleks » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:10 pm

slowboat wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:09 pm
The good:
Board bounces off the water like nothing else I tried. I felt like it was impossible to nose dive on it. I purposely drove it down, but it always went right back up.
V

How different is this from the Shinnster?
I never rode Shinnster with foil, only El Stubbo. On El Stubbo it wasn't too unusual to get nose dive or side water catch. Jackson definitely has more nose scoop comparing to both Shinnster and Elstubbo. Also I feel that raised/beveled sides on Jackson are very helpful against side water catch/dive.

Please don't get me wrong with the review - Jackson board is a pleasure to ride and is a big improvement over Shinnster and El Stubo (foil wise). I mention all the negative parts only in an attempt to eventually make it better. I believe that ideal board is not that hard to make with some minor adjustments :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

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bigwave
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Re: Is Shinn going to produce his own foil?

Postby bigwave » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:54 am

slowboat wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:09 pm
The good:
Board bounces off the water like nothing else I tried. I felt like it was impossible to nose dive on it. I purposely drove it down, but it always went right back up.
V

How different is this from the Shinnster?
I rode the Shinnster quite a bit last summer using a Zeeko Carbon and Zeeko Blue/White Aluminum foil. Yesterday I had my first ride using the Jackson with the Shinn F model Foil. The first obvious difference is the shape of the Jackson verses the Shinnster. Touch downs are easier on the Jackson .Not bad with the Shinnster,but the extra width of the Jackson makes for better on water performance. I have no issues with the foot strap placement. Definitely more angle and closer together than say my Aguera Pro Race but I had no problems with my feet(yesterday in booties size 11 ) hitting the other strap. I really liked the beveled rails of the Jackson verses the Shinnster. Keep in mind we are talking apples to oranges. The Shinnster is a super fun hybrid directional that was converted using a plate stiffener to make the board foil friendly. The Jackson is a dedicated foil board. Back to the straps, nice and big, great adjustability . I positioned the foil at the front of the track and the lift from the F model wing was very fast. Soon as the board developed a little momentum ,up on foil. I must say, the Jackson is very balanced ,easy to ride. I would think its even easier with the P model wing (hoping to get that soon). It was a light wind session using full power on a Flysurfer Stoke 12m. The Jackson with the F model had very good top speed that will definitely be faster in stronger wind. The weight of the board is a non issue. Felt nimble, stable and nice in the air when I jumped. If I was a guy who broke 4 or 5 boards I would not be complaining about a board that is built to be durable. :D
The Shinn Jackson looks to be a very nice foil board. Super travel friendly, it fits nicely with its foil bag in a Dakine 155 slider . For a first session in light wind , I was impressed. Great Job Mark!


:thumb:

Shinnworld2
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Re: Is Shinn going to produce his own foil?

Postby Shinnworld2 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:59 am

Hi Aleks,
A couple of points to note from my perspective as the board developer.

The first weight of board I gave you was before production started and before the final pad arrived. Now you know why most brands don't publish the weight of the products..... we produce on site in our HQ and our lead time is very short meaning we can and do tweak designs right up to the last moment to try to improve things.

Jackson is a completely new way to look at an ABS technology foil board.... last year i was trying too make the boards stiffer with materials and the weight increased more and more with very un-satisfactory results. Jackson was a return to the drawing board to find a way to increase the stiffness without resorting to simply Moore glass and carbon. The raised rails serve 2 purposes.... one to avoid catching and secondly to increase stiffness.... In your post you mention the constant thickness of the rail on the board - this is not an accident there are 2 reasons. Firstly you noticed how well the Jackson avoids nose diving..... well that is in large part due to the stiffness of the nose.... making the nose thinner makes it more flexible and when you nose dive the nose flexes and creates drag..... a stiffer nose is better (trust me I drank 100l litres of sea water testing this board). The second reason is a technology reason, you can not compare the way this board is made to the Cabrinha or a normal ABS board, I'm not going to say more as we invested a lot in this technology but I can assure you there is a reason.
There is one thing I am 110% certain of in a foil board....it's better to have a few grammes more and great stiffness than to make the lightest board that flexes. If Jackson weighs the same as your last board but you comment you don't feel it when riding and you do notice the performance improvements then that is a good thing no?

Strap positions.... once again there is a reason for everything
Single back strap position.... with the front straps you have the chance to regulate your stance width. Why would you need to move the position of your back foot? On a regular board you move your back foot in relation to the fin position to achieve the feel and performance you want. ON Jackson you have the possibility to regulate the foil position infinitely..... why would you want a "macro" 2cm adjustment of a 2nd strap position when you have better adjustment with the tracks?
The track nuts are flush with the pad surface, Blazej and I have tens and possibly even hundreds of hours riding this set up in bare feet without problem or complaints..... in fact I only ever ride bare foot and I never had an issue with it, I certainly never felt the track underfoot when riding let alone had discomfort with it.
The front straps position....Jackson is set for one or 2 front straps. If you want to use 2 front straps you will find a spare screw in the kit that is longer and allows you to fix both strap ends together into one insert. Why? Balance and stability. The more over the centre line of the board you stand the more stable you are especially when carving and foot switching. Using 2 inserts means moving them around 5cm apart to have space to screw them in and this takes you off the centre line of the board something I find noticeably less stable.
The front straps are at a higher angle than last years boards not the same as last years. I am not a fan of a higher angle.
Out of interest, have you measured every other board on the market? I have measured a lot of them and I can assure you we are not the most parallel by far!

I did smile at your last comment "the ideal board is not that hard to make"..... as a designer and leader of a team of 5 people that helped develop and test Jackson I would disagree with you not least because the "ideal board" is such a personal thing.
Blazej is riding the 120 Jackson for freeride use and has not asked for any changes at all.....and as my main foil rider i will make him what he wants (within reason!!).

Having said all that I agree, Jackson is not the PERFECT board.....if it were I would stop working now and retire, I certainly would not waste my time trying to make a Jackson V2 if it were an impossible task. There is ALWAYS room for improvement in every product and all feedback is positive feedback and I take it into account for the future.

With regards changing your board..... you would need to go back to the dealer you bought it with and discuss the matter with them, I'm afraid there is not a lot I can do to bypass the chain here.....

Thanks again fro the feedback, I hope my commments open your ideas a little to my design thoughts sorry if this reply has become a little longer than I wanted!

slowboat
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Re: Is Shinn going to produce his own foil?

Postby slowboat » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:45 pm

I applaud Mark for how he has handled this topic and the time he has put in to address the questions. Sounds like they have produced some great foil products.

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Re: Is Shinn going to produce his own foil?

Postby aleks » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:05 pm

Thank you for a reply Mark, it is nice that we can count on your comments here. I hope you understand that I'm not attacking your product - far from it. In fact I'm planing to keep using Jackson (probably 120 if I can exchange my 145 without a penalty), as there is nothing else on the market that is more durable and suitable for my style of riding (at least out of boards I can try locally). Could Jackson be better by adding a few more strap inserts? I my opinion yes :thumb: . Would have I still bought Jackson 145 without seeing it in person if I knew about weight changes? Probably not :( .

It is awesome that you keep working on design Mark. As many other people here, I'm passionate about my gear and constantly look for ways to improve it. I hope you find my feedback more help then a nuisance and use it in Jackson V2 :idea: ! Feel free to contact me directly if you want to hear more ideas from regular riders - posting feedback here looks more negative than intended...

Thanks :bye: !


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