Why? Just Why? Why ask what the advantages are of foil kites over lei kites in FOIL racing? Is it not obvious?vman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:49 amok Im bringing back this tread to live, since its now 2017 and kites both SLE single strut and foils have evolved since 2009
ok I know foils are lighter but lets say while both are equally powered up, which kite has the advantage and why.
Im referring foil racing.
sorry couldn't find it, can I have the link please?socommk23 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:00 amWhy? Just Why? Why ask what the advantages are of foil kites over lei kites in FOIL racing? Is it not obvious?vman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:49 amok Im bringing back this tread to live, since its now 2017 and kites both SLE single strut and foils have evolved since 2009
ok I know foils are lighter but lets say while both are equally powered up, which kite has the advantage and why.
Im referring foil racing.
There are already loads of posts about this via pump me up.
Does this really need to be brought back?
Thanks for asking VMAN. Here's the link:
Read the full admission at viewtopic.php?t=2394491&p=953414windmlv wrote:The foil kite went down. No problem except it now had a twist (an hour glass in my old spinnaker sailing days ).
Worked on it for a while but eventually rolled up the lines and then tried to roll up the wet, soggy kite and place it on top of my board.
Not easy when it has water in it. Swam for a while but another foiler dragged me in, thankfully. I was way too far out.
Any tricks to remove the twist? I couldn't think of a way to do it but assume there is.
Kamikuza wrote:Have you done a mixer test and checked your SPL length? SPL = spare parts line = the bright yellow lines that go through the pulleys... they can shrink A LOT and bork up the handling…
joffaburger wrote:Moved to a foil kite 5 years ago (flysurfer pulse 10m)... I found after 6-9 months that the RAM started performing very poorly especially in gusty conditions I assume this was due to bridle stretching, I did manage to trim the bridle regularly to what I thought was intended spec however as already stated these are complicated bridles with many attachment points and I'm not sure if I did a perfect job! In the end I couldn't get the kite to feel anywhere near how it performed during the first 3 - 6 months of it's life. I think the kite and the bridles became quickly blown out...The kite was expensive and an attempt to resell the kite at half its purchase price failed...
For the complete discussion on the diabolical problems associated with "resetting the mixer,” ”compensating for line shrinkage,” “adjusting the adjuster,” “adjusting lines "C", "B", & “Z,” & trying to stop ram airs from back stalling, check out: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2378918&p=778491#p778491gmb13 wrote:I am assuming a few things:plummet wrote:Hey bro's. I'd like to make my speed 3 less stally. Apart from resetting the mixer what else do you recommend?
Is it simply a matter of lengthening the rearlines or shortening the front?
Should I lengthen the Z line abit?
1) You have reset the mixer to 0
2) You have compensated for Back line shrinkage by shortening your front lines using the Black Line above the adjuster. Front and Back lines should be the same length when the Adjuster is fully open and the bar is pulled all the way down to the chicken loop. Best to tie up the end of the lines to a tree or other solid stationary object to test this.
So. If the kite is still to backstally, try lengthening C. B will adjust itself harmonically by itself. This will sacrifice a bit of stability, but will give you less backstall. Lengthing Z will just make the kite turn slower and will also reduce the Low end of the kite.
TURNING & SLED EFFECTwedge wrote:Yeah that looks like the opposite of fun. We've all been there. Far from shore, wind dies. The difference with an inflatable is that you can wrap the lines and swim it home.Hawaiis wrote:Foil kite and foil board are not very compatible
Foil board need more power to start, less power after planing
Foil kite is the opposite, gutless to start, overpowered when going.
20140701 Flysurfer Speed 3 deluxe21m backstall
Board Carafino 2008
Wind 6-7 knots
I had a Speed in 2007 and it always seemed to stall in the first power dive. Wing tips would curl in, kite would drift back into the power zone, and just as my ass was falling back in the water BAM, it would fill with air and yank. I'm sure it was partially low wind and user error, but damn. Inflatables always just felt more intuitive to me.
e.g.Hawaiis wrote:One swimming session will ruin your perception of the kite ... the Flysurfer ended up in the water … It was an hour long and 5 hours to sort out the spaghetti.
Indeed, the Chrono is massively over-rated and just another example of the overhyped bs that ram lovers have been repeatedly regurgitating since 1999. The Chrono is NOTORIOUS for balling up, collapsing, wineglassing, instability (esp in gusty conditions), and near impossible water relaunch. It is grossly inferior compared to similar inflatables.joriws wrote:Well I've always said Chrono is a bad copy of other foil kites. Many probably has tried it and did a conclusion that foils kites ball up in the sky and are hard/unsafe to launch, requires high line maintenance and cannot water launch.
c) Surf conditionsHawaiis wrote:Totally agree, that is exactly what happens to my FS Speed 3 deluxe 21m.Peter_Frank wrote:How does the Chrono turn ?
And how does it handle "overflying" - meaning when you ride underneath the kite, or in gusts ?
As with the foil kites I have used, they turned in a way, so with sharp turns the inside tip could fold...
Nothing crazy happened though, so just an observation and you get used to it, so can be avoided.
Regarding gusts, or when you ride towards the kite - I have seen foils (both the really old ones, and also new ones), that can "fold" and fall down - instead of drifting back steadily (as good LEI's does).
That is my only concern, as otherwise only pros
schmoe wrote: A bridle tangle on flysurfer can mean that you do not go out... For me I had many lost hours where the wind is cranking because of the bridles. I rather inflate 5 tubes and know that the setup time is exactly 10 minutes, no more no less, than have setup time that is 70% 5 minutes and 30% an hour. And now with one pump, the setup time of a tube is less, so it is not an advantage of the foil anymore.
Ram air bridle tangles can be very dangerous. A lot of riders have reported how their ram airs caught seaweed in their bridles, causing their kites to wineglass and spin out of control. Breakages can be expensive (US $500 plus). eg "Flysurfer Warrior Exploding" viewtopic.php?t=4612flaps1111 wrote:I had a FS speed2 19 mts SA and its effective range was 8 to 12 knots with a door. I sold the first day it hit the water and then the beach sand and i had to activate the 5th line, what a mess with all that bridles¡¡¡
In flight the LEIs are infinitely better than the foils. Now I have a Dyno 18 with a range 8-18 knots with 85kg and I can't be happier with this kite.
Last summer I flew alongside a FS speed3 21 mts in 8-9knts and was so slow and boring and I don't think at all it had the same high end they say when the wind picked up lets say 5-6 knots more the Fs guy had to went out to the beach he was clearly over power with a 137x42 board.
For the full epiphany, checkout viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2360979&start=40diraklib wrote:"the SA-19 is huge and can whack you silly if you let it get down wind of you in a low wind launch. It is downright scary - be ready with the QR at all times if not up and riding!!! I can't say I agree with claims that you can ride the SA-19 in anything lower than a steady 8 knots. I made a personal choice to not ride the SA-19 any more. It went down twice in lulls and managed to bow-tie on the way down - there was no way to relaunch. I was not as lucky as others that self rescued. My kite was full of water by the time I dragged my very tired and frustrated a$$ to shore. It sounds simple, "wrap the lines around the bar, fold the kite in half, roll it up on your board and paddle in"... noooo... there are lines everywhere under water that wrap around your feet as you are trying to manipulate the kite. You just pray that a gust won't pop the kite up and slice of an appendage. The kite ... is just too scary when it goes down. My attitude now is - if my LEI won't fly, I shouldn't be on the water. Anyone interested in a slightly used SA2-19m??? Cheap???"
For the full story, checkout: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2376332pmaggie wrote:I rode foils only a few times, so these are really my two cents. The problem I experieced with foils in very light wind when they suddenly fall. In my home spot, in very light wind days, sometimes the wind really goes to zero for 1 minute or so. When this happen, both foils and inflatables suddenly fall. In this cases, my inflatable, since it's far heavier than a foil, fall directly into the water with no line tangling and I just have to wait for a gust to relaunch (when possible, that means about 7 knots for my Core 17). When a foil falls with no wind, being very light, it's common that its lines roll over it and became completely tangled. At that point, it's not that easy to relaunch.
The other big problem with foils in very light wind is when the wind completely stops. With an inflatable, you just get your kite and swim attached to your little floating boat. With a foil, you have 20 sqm of tissue to carry home with you!
For the full admission viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2362065FredBGG wrote:The other day I had a front line fail.
Wind was slightly off shore...
I really needed a tow to the beach.
I had the kite safely on the 5th line folded in half (flysurfer Foil)
I waved down two kiters.... both expert judging by their riding.
Both refused to help.
One even yelled if you can't relaunch it's your problem.
Anyway after a difficult ordeal in the surf and current I got back to the beach.
I had to rest a bit but my board was still out there.
Wind moving at <7 knots (13km/h) simply cannot deliver enough power for ANY kite to perform; certainly NO KITE WILL PERFORM AT 5 KNOTS. Gunnar's exaggerations can be found at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2361421gmb13 wrote:My Speed 3 19 DL gives up under 5 knots... - Gunnar Biniasch
i) Peter Frank's opiniongobigkahuna wrote:I read all the same reports and reviews that everyone else here probably read and spent the "big bucks" for the S2-19, but to be honest was extremely disappointed and sold it…Flysurfers just plain suck in gusty, light winds…I had a hard time keeping the thing in the air much less getting enough power from it to go on the water… A couple months later I got an 07 Waroo 20m…and it is the best 20m I've ever flown. I am able to fly it in winds I would never have thought possible.
RACINGPeter_Frank wrote:It depends a lot on your weight, how low you can go.Night_Thrasher wrote:What is the lowest wind condition I can go kitesurfing and what is the best kite brand and size for it?
If you are "average" around 80kg, the lowest you can go will be around 5m/s (10knots) with the right kite and board.
If you are REALLY experienced, you will be able to push the lower limit down to about 8-9 knots, but this is the absolute lowest wind possible to kitesurf in (holding ground/going upwind) with average weight IMO.
And talking about EXACTLY how "low you can go" is just pure bullshit - as you can not measure the windspeed at the kite, which is the only true value for this.
Sometimes you have a huge windgradient, sometimes a small one, and air temperature and height also influences.
But around 10knots is the limit for most kitesurfers, and just a small tad lower for the "extreme" ones
When you talk about windspeed - where is it measured then ?
At headheight, maybe around 2 meter above the water ?
Or at 10 meter height, which is our (Denmark) meterological standard height for wind measurements ?
There is a difference of typical 2 knots, so VERY important.
My point is - always take those claiming "this and that" as their minimum wind speed with a grain of salt
plummet wrote: In light winds on lumpy seas with big surf i'm finding the speed to be very annoying. The chop and swell slows you down so you cant get speed to boost. the slow turning and completely non existant down wind ability is a real pain in the waves. also when you do ride a wave upwind the extra speed powers the kite up and tears you off the wave face.... grrrrr.
I've come to the conclusion that it really is a flat water or land kite.
jakemoore wrote:I am having mixed luck going downwind with speed 3 especially on the raceboard. When I lose line tension, I just fall right into the water, and it takes a minute to build it up again.
Because of safety problems, ram air bans are being considered in racing viewtopic.php?t=2386845.plummet wrote: Yes i also loop downwind. which is fine unless your on a wave and the wave is pushing you faster than the loop..... then its tack upwind or have an expensive pile of fabric get washing machined in the surf.
joffaburger wrote:Moved to a foil kite 5 years ago (flysurfer pulse 10m). As far as RAM air kiters being weirdos I can honestly say that you find out who your real friends are on a kite beach when you switch to a RAM air kite! Many of the people who used to help me launch suddenly lost their hands as I flew LEI kites for 3 years before trying a RAM air I would have to say the guys on beach changed their attitude towards me rather than I became weirdo overnight!
It is unreasonable to expect inflatable kiters to have to learn the idiosyncrasies of inferior and dangerous ram equipment. “Foilholio” states that inflatable riders try to help him launch/land from the "centre" of his kite.... HOW DANGEROUS IS THIS!!!??? The risk of getting tangled in ram air bridles and having to learn the idiosyncrasies of ram air kites is unacceptable. It’s interesting to speculate on the causes of weirdness in ram lovers… maybe their weirdness is self selecting, i.e. There must be some sort of psychological problem in the first place to deliberately choose inferior kites in the face of overwhelming evidence of the superiority of inflatables.foilholio wrote: I just dont understand how kiters cant grasp the concept of landing a foil kite... For some reason the center of the kite is their favorite place, especially after explaining it. Add in trying the turn it inside out after grabbing it. Or trying to land it from down wind, this happens way too often. But a random non kiter on the beach can understand and land it every time...?????
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