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New foil from Ozone

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kitexpert
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Re: New foil from Ozone

Postby kitexpert » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:46 am

Well, I don't get this kite (marketing). It looks just another mid AR foil kite, with mid AR foil kite properties. Not saying there is many such available. FS produced similar kites before they went all in to Speeds (and LEIs), it was many years ago... Even then FS had some technically advanced details I can't find in Hyperlink. I'm sure HL would lose against Sp3 with jump height and hangtime, upwind and wind range. Would it do better against P3 or P4, perhaps but I wouldn't bet on it.

Everything in the kite seems ordinary, except that valve configuration. I don't see much benefit because closed foils work well in snowkiting, in fact they are better than open cell kites in some respects.

It would be interesting to hear what new there is in that kite. "Minimal bridle" is somehow simple, but there is a lot of excessive line involved. Would it be even more "minimal" if also secondary level was ditched? Canopy looks clean, like Ozones have for a long time. Perhaps there has been some development, "design with OZ-CAD" :)

LE stiffeners are beneficial though.

Perhaps kiters just forgot how this kind of kites are:

"radius of the downloop is quite bigger with a foil"... "have to get used to the slower turning"... "undoing rats nest before or after kiting"..."water starting compared to lei was a tad tricky at first as the HL is pretty slow turner"..."i don't think i would ever consider a foil kite in heavier wind conditions..."

No doubt HL has many nice qualities, like all good compromises do. But to say it gives more adrenaline than a LEI is a bit too bold words - if not that adrenaline comes from undoing those rat nests :)

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck". No matter what PR people say. For me Hyperlink looks more "old story" than "a new era".

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Re: New foil from Ozone

Postby windrider1 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:33 am

I love new kites and the push forward to make things better but gotta agree with this .lol :lol:
kitexpert wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:46 am
Well, I don't get this kite (marketing). It looks just another mid AR foil kite, with mid AR foil kite properties. Not saying there is many such available. FS produced similar kites before they went all in to Speeds (and LEIs), it was many years ago... Even then FS had some technically advanced details I can't find in Hyperlink. I'm sure HL would lose against Sp3 with jump height and hangtime, upwind and wind range. Would it do better against P3 or P4, perhaps but I wouldn't bet on it.

Everything in the kite seems ordinary, except that valve configuration. I don't see much benefit because closed foils work well in snowkiting, in fact they are better than open cell kites in some respects.

It would be interesting to hear what new there is in that kite. "Minimal bridle" is somehow simple, but there is a lot of excessive line involved. Would it be even more "minimal" if also secondary level was ditched? Canopy looks clean, like Ozones have for a long time. Perhaps there has been some development, "design with OZ-CAD" :)

LE stiffeners are beneficial though.

Perhaps kiters just forgot how this kind of kites are:

"radius of the downloop is quite bigger with a foil"... "have to get used to the slower turning"... "undoing rats nest before or after kiting"..."water starting compared to lei was a tad tricky at first as the HL is pretty slow turner"..."i don't think i would ever consider a foil kite in heavier wind conditions..."

No doubt HL has many nice qualities, like all good compromises do. But to say it gives more adrenaline than a LEI is a bit too bold words - if not that adrenaline comes from undoing those rat nests :)

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck". No matter what PR people say. For me Hyperlink looks more "old story" than "a new era".

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Re: New foil from Ozone

Postby gmb13 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:01 am

kitexpert wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:46 am
Well, I don't get this kite (marketing). It looks just another mid AR foil kite, with mid AR foil kite properties. Not saying there is many such available. FS produced similar kites before they went all in to Speeds (and LEIs), it was many years ago... Even then FS had some technically advanced details I can't find in Hyperlink. I'm sure HL would lose against Sp3 with jump height and hangtime, upwind and wind range. Would it do better against P3 or P4, perhaps but I wouldn't bet on it.

Everything in the kite seems ordinary, except that valve configuration. I don't see much benefit because closed foils work well in snowkiting, in fact they are better than open cell kites in some respects.

It would be interesting to hear what new there is in that kite. "Minimal bridle" is somehow simple, but there is a lot of excessive line involved. Would it be even more "minimal" if also secondary level was ditched? Canopy looks clean, like Ozones have for a long time. Perhaps there has been some development, "design with OZ-CAD" :)





LE stiffeners are beneficial though.

Perhaps kiters just forgot how this kind of kites are:

"radius of the downloop is quite bigger with a foil"... "have to get used to the slower turning"... "undoing rats nest before or after kiting"..."water starting compared to lei was a tad tricky at first as the HL is pretty slow turner"..."i don't think i would ever consider a foil kite in heavier wind conditions..."

No doubt HL has many nice qualities, like all good compromises do. But to say it gives more adrenaline than a LEI is a bit too bold words - if not that adrenaline comes from undoing those rat nests :)

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck". No matter what PR people say. For me Hyperlink looks more "old story" than "a new era".
Fly it and then compare it to a P4. I was initially thinking like you, but was very pleasantly surprised. Hangtime is amazing and I would go as far to say as good as the Speed3. The P4 cannot even come close to the hangtime of the Hyperlink. Also the P4 is unstable as all Hell compared to the Hyperlink.

When I was at Flysurfer we tried for years to make a kite like this and failed miserably and FS pretty much gave up on this type of kite after the Unity desaster. Try the kite, I guarantee you will think differently.

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Re: New foil from Ozone

Postby kitexpert » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:33 pm

Ok. Unfortunately there are no Hyperlinks around (yet) and old FS kites are more or less out of tune and/or don't keep their pressure. That was one of the reasons I started to move to LEI's.

It is of course totally unfair to compare new foil kite to old and used one. I have sometimes almost laughed when owner of the new kite has sincerely wondered how much better kites have become...

I'm not going to get Hyperlink because I have Ultras which fill very well my need for that kind of use. For sure they don't have comparable hangtime but their handling (bar feedback, turning speed, ease of use) is much above any foil kite. I have couple high AR race foil kites, but I don't use them that often nowadays.

It is true Unity was a bit strange kite, it felt so soft and gutless. Also P4's wingtips were too unstable, but in practice it wasn't so big thing. P4 wasn't big hangtime kite for sure and Speed3 offered higher performance with not much drawbacks. I've thought that was the reason FS quit producing mid AR kites.

I remember all the big words during the years for example for Frenzys. In practice they were low aspect low performance kites, slow and unefficient. We used to ride circles around them with Speeds and own kites. Frenzys evolved through the years, but it still is what it is: low aspect kite.

If Hyperlink really has near Speed3 performance with much lower AR it is unbelievable achievement. I don't know how it could be possible but if it is true Hyperlink is probably universally best foil kite ever.

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Re: New foil from Ozone

Postby jeromeL » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:03 pm

maybe we will see one at KOTA?
how does it megaloop :lol: ? I have heard that in Miami people were trying out kiteloop on the smaller size medium aspect wing, forgot which one.

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gmb13
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Re: New foil from Ozone

Postby gmb13 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:18 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:33 pm
Ok. Unfortunately there are no Hyperlinks around (yet) and old FS kites are more or less out of tune and/or don't keep their pressure. That was one of the reasons I started to move to LEI's.

It is of course totally unfair to compare new foil kite to old and used one. I have sometimes almost laughed when owner of the new kite has sincerely wondered how much better kites have become...

I'm not going to get Hyperlink because I have Ultras which fill very well my need for that kind of use. For sure they don't have comparable hangtime but their handling (bar feedback, turning speed, ease of use) is much above any foil kite. I have couple high AR race foil kites, but I don't use them that often nowadays.

It is true Unity was a bit strange kite, it felt so soft and gutless. Also P4's wingtips were too unstable, but in practice it wasn't so big thing. P4 wasn't big hangtime kite for sure and Speed3 offered higher performance with not much drawbacks. I've thought that was the reason FS quit producing mid AR kites.

I remember all the big words during the years for example for Frenzys. In practice they were low aspect low performance kites, slow and unefficient. We used to ride circles around them with Speeds and own kites. Frenzys evolved through the years, but it still is what it is: low aspect kite.

If Hyperlink really has near Speed3 performance with much lower AR it is unbelievable achievement. I don't know how it could be possible but if it is true Hyperlink is probably universally best foil kite ever.
Have you seen this video of mine:

phpBB [video]


Compare that to my old speed 3 video. In that video I am on a 15m Speed 3 in similar conditions. In my VLOG vid I am on a 9m Hyperlink. About 20 knots wind, same spot. Pretty much the same height and hangtime with 6m2 less and 6 years older.

phpBB [video]


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Re: New foil from Ozone

Postby kitexpert » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:33 pm

Thanks, I liked both videos, but I don't think for comparison between the two they are reliable enough. One should have both kites (unused) and test them back to back during the same session. For example to test upwind ability it is easiest to do in the winter, with skis. Then conditions are practically same and boardskills do not affect.

I did some search for the Hyperlink but unfortunately I couldn't find technical specs or very clear pictures. From what I found I counted 31 cells and noticed how bridle is designed, then you can see how inner parts are done. Cell shape seems quite good, so cell count for the AR is high enough. Other interpretation is kite has quite thick airfoil, which some people don't like. But after all performance is all that matters and thick airfoils have their own benefits.

I think best achievement (from how it looks) is how clean Hyperlink is. Also bridle is ok, even though it could have less line for the cost of added complexity. Canopy curve and plan view of the kite look both balanced, I don't see anything to correct here. By its design it is more ambitious than for example Pulsion, so if I had to choose between these I would definately take Hyperlink.

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Re: New foil from Ozone

Postby gmb13 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:45 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:33 pm
Thanks, I liked both videos, but I don't think for comparison between the two they are reliable enough. One should have both kites (unused) and test them back to back during the same session. For example to test upwind ability it is easiest to do in the winter, with skis. Then conditions are practically same and boardskills do not affect.

I did some search for the Hyperlink but unfortunately I couldn't find technical specs or very clear pictures. From what I found I counted 31 cells and noticed how bridle is designed, then you can see how inner parts are done. Cell shape seems quite good, so cell count for the AR is high enough. Other interpretation is kite has quite thick airfoil, which some people don't like. But after all performance is all that matters and thick airfoils have their own benefits.

I think best achievement (from how it looks) is how clean Hyperlink is. Also bridle is ok, even though it could have less line for the cost of added complexity. Canopy curve and plan view of the kite look both balanced, I don't see anything to correct here. By its design it is more ambitious than for example Pulsion, so if I had to choose between these I would definately take Hyperlink.
I am not sure if you know my history and how Flag Beach works. Was was a teamrider and team manager as FS for quite some some time. That speed 3 15m in the video is new and tuned for max performance. The conditions at Flag Beach do not vary much. This is a typical day. I rode the Speed 3 for a long time and know what it is capable off.

Upwind performance I would have to give to the Speed 3, but in regards to hangtime, the Hyperlink matches the Speed 3, with the added bonus of faster turning.

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Re: New foil from Ozone

Postby kitexpert » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:33 pm

Ok, I know you are a pro rider with long history with kites and I respect your views. In my own spots conditions do vary and it has many times become evident how even normal (mediocre) kite feels great and jumps big in perfect conditions. Sometimes I've experienced unusually big wind gradient which makes holding the kite easy and gives huge additional boost in the air.

I look kites also from designer and kite maker point of view, not only as an end user. More I look to Hyperlink more I like it - even though it has that mid AR compromise feel for me. I doubt if it would be useful addition to my kite quiver because I already have all kinds of kites more tailored for their purposes. I like my Ultras very much and I don't see it reasonable to replace them with Hyperlinks even if I had the money to do so.

I need to test Hyperlink to be able to say more.

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Re: New foil from Ozone

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:25 pm

I have not tried the HL but I use a medium AR foilkite since 1.5 year and love it (conceptair Pulsion)... far better than my ex speed 3 and speed4. Speed and upwind are comparable (I was driving faster with my 12m than a 21m speed3 in approx same weight and board, 9 knots en TT board) and jump is way easier due to quicker and more powerful turn. On snow as well it is far more "usable" and fun.

Like you I am surprised that such smaller ratios can have (at least) same performance than a speeds. My conviction is that their profil is thinner (i.e. "heights of intercells cloth" ) which compensates for the larger AR.

Now compared to my old Airush One hat I love (2012, grand father from the Ultra), turning radius is clearly larger on the foilkites and requires more anticipation in the command, but upwind, speed, hangtime is far far far better ; even drift is better on the Pulsion and the HL (confirmed by a surfer teacher who owns the three).
But I understand your point on the LEI agility and setting on the beach (and swimming with kite in the water after a long lull...) which is more appropriated to some practices.


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