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 Post subject: WILL YOUR QUICK RELEASE WORK?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:39 pm 
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Will your mechanical attachment to your chicken loop or center line WORK in ALL CASES or not?

Is it safe and reasonable to RELY upon this device releasing your chicken loop or centerline under ALL CONDITIONS?



We are talking about MANY devices including snap shackles such as tip release Wichards, Tylaskas, all the various pin release systems, the new old three ring parachute releases, custom designed spreader bar mechanisms, etc. Some of these devices WERE NEVER INTENDED to be used in kiteboarding of course but have been adapted in some cases.

Lots of accidents and incidents have established that going without any mechanical quick release, with just a bare chicken loop, isn't very safe or reliable and use of some release device appears to be indicated.

What do you think?


Last edited by RickI on Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:43 pm 
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Things that might interfer with a proper, effective chicken loop or centerline quick release function could include:

1. Failure to open under excessive loading,
2. Failure to open because of sand block or corrosion because of poor maintenance,
3. Failure to open because components bend or alter configuration through current or historical loading,
4. Failure to fully release the center line or chicken loop AFTER opening,
5. Failure to successfully find, grab and release your device in an emergency,
6. Failure to properly open because it is improperly rigged,
7. Use of an ineffective release never intended for kiteboarding (e.g. side release shackle),
8. And other causes.

I have heard about lots of incidents, accidents and have tried to analyze the root causes and possible solutions. I arrived at the opinion quite a while ago based upon reported accidents, that we CAN NOT rely upon the devices to release under all conditions and at all times.

This is not a condemnation of manufacturers IN THE LEAST. They are trying lots of new ideas with varying degrees of success and these devices appear to be improving. Coming up with a quick release mechanism that works under all conditions and times is a VERY DEMANDING technological requirement and will likely evade discovery and development for a while longer. Taking pot shots at the manufacturers for this is not likely to benefit ANYONE, constructive input on what works, what needs development and best of all, creative ideas should help.


Last edited by RickI on Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:46 pm 
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Q U E S T I O N:

Your car has airbags, front and side, your door panels are reinforced, you have a five point seatbelt and helmet on, you have every conventional safety device in your car ...

WHAT DO YOU DO IF YOU DRIVE OFF OF A CLIFF?


All your gadgets may or may not help, best to NEVER GO THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. LIfe can be uncertain, why add to it by tossing yourself into emergencies through carelessness?


The current approach, that I have been advocating for a long time is, TO AVOID PLACING YOURSELF INTO EMERGENCY SITUATIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE. The outcome of such scenarios is simply too uncertain at this time, even with well maintained and tested devices. You may not have time to act, you may not be able to find it, your lines may twist following release, the device may not open, etc. etc.

Until an AUTOMATIC, HIGHLY RELIABLE DEPOWERING MECHANISM is placed on the market things may continue to be a bit uncertain in emergency scenarios when depowering your kite very rapidly is of critical importance.

For now, one course of action could be:

1. Use a properly rigged, tested and well maintained quick release with as high an indication of reliabile performance as configured, as feasible.

2. Mentally and physically practice activating your quick release to try to develop quicker reaction and to verfiy performance.

3. AVOID EMERGENCY SITUATIONS through proper training, careful building of experience, weather and riding area monitoring and use of well maintained, tested and preflighted kite and safety gear along with good judgment, etc.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:01 pm 
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one thing we have to keep in mind:
nothing is 100% safe

Even if tested bars or releases have great test results like my bar, but I guess there will be a situation where it doesn't open if something is really f*** up. Still I believe my release is the best working out there (based on Wichard.
So I try anything to avoid that I have to release anyway, by anticipation and having an overview on water and weather. And of course "distance is your friend" helps a lot as well.

Thx Rick for pointing it out.

Greets
Toby


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:46 pm 
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Location: Southern California
Quote:
7. And other causes.


7. Failure to appreciate the developing emergency and failure to use the QR early enough in the impending disaster to avoid injury.

The inherent instinct to try and handle a situation and to avoid the tangles a released bar invariable leads to, eventuates into a failure to release early enough.

Mental and physical practice and the knowledge of potential problems helps in this regard. The reports that you, Rick, have helped to broadcast go a long way in keeping everyone informed and better help us appreciate those disasters waiting to happen.

Thanks, Rollin


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:40 pm 
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windy2 wrote:
Quote:
7. And other causes.


7. Failure to appreciate the developing emergency and failure to use the QR early enough in the impending disaster to avoid injury.

The inherent instinct to try and handle a situation and to avoid the tangles a released bar invariable leads to, eventuates into a failure to release early enough.

Mental and physical practice and the knowledge of potential problems helps in this regard. The reports that you, Rick, have helped to broadcast go a long way in keeping everyone informed and better help us appreciate those disasters waiting to happen.

Thanks, Rollin



Excellent points Rollin and thanks Toby for putting out a well considered and crafted product. Too many people just wait TOO long to react. This can include people that have already been lofted or dragged over a distance ONLY to be lofted and dragged again. These individuals sacrifice the critical opportunity to depower during the lull between taking off again.

Take the example of a sudden fire in your kitchen. Do you stare at it for a while or do you move FAST to act for best effect to GET RID OF IT? Shock can delay proper reaction to be sure but rehearsal MAY reduce the odds of a vital delay.

DON'T WAIT FOR SOMEONE TO CATCH YOUR KITE IF TROUBLE IS COMING.

SOLO DEPOWER YOUR KITE IMMEDIATELY, TAKING CARE TO PROTECT BYSTANDERS.

IF YOU HAVE A PROPER BUFFER ZONE, BYSTANDERS SHOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE FOR MUCH CONSIDERATION IN THE CRITICAL SECONDS OF AN EMERGENCY.

Think ahead, prepare, shred hard and fly smart!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 6:29 pm 
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I think that very many kiters in this forum know about the fact that pinquick release are not easy to upon under load.

Last weekend, mmMeikel, Chief of Security for the KiteSurfThophy - the german championship - put up his table and showed how much efford it will take to open up a pin quick release.
By the way: his tabel was used to test all devices from all kiters before competition begunn.

I was amased and took pictures. The quick release system is put under load of measured 250 kg. And the question is: how much strenght will be needed to open it up?

Look at the kitegirl:

Image

she needs BOTH hands to open it up, AND has a good stand with BOTH feet on the sandy beach. Not on a jumping, sliding board.

And here is why:

Image

it takes a almost 30 kg to release... way too much


Last edited by Sylt Rider on Fri Jun 20, 2003 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 6:47 pm 
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windy2 wrote:
... 7. Failure to appreciate the developing emergency and failure to use the QR early enough in the impending disaster to avoid injury.
The inherent instinct to try and handle a situation and to avoid the tangles a released bar invariable leads to, eventuates into a failure to release early enough. ...


Theres a pretty relevant example of how we should be prepared for emergencies in a true story of carrier-based jet pilot who, after years of incident free missions had something go serious wrong during one of his launches. Less than of a second after leaving the carrier deck his plane hit the water and disintegrated ... but just before it hit the water the pilot ejected and was recovered. Amazed at how the pilot had recognozed the probelm and taken the right action in time, someone asked him "When did you make the decision to eject?".
He replied "About three years ago - when I started flying these things"

Steve T.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 6:58 pm 
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Sylt Rider wrote:
I think that very many kiters in this forum know about the fact that pinquick release are not easy to upon under load.

...it takes a almost 30 kg to release... way too much


I don't like these releases, in fact when I got a Maui Magic chicken loop with my new kites I tried it with just my own weight (210 lb) and was unsatified with the force required to release it. (didn't measure it - just decided I didn't want to have to find that amount of strength in an emergency), so I took it off and replaced it with a Witchard. For those who do use them though I wonder if keeping the rope and pin well waxed or greased would help. Also if I ever did go back to a pin release I would want at least two reduction loops before the pin (That's how our tow-release for paraglider tow-launches works)

Steve T.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:39 pm 
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Sylt Rider wrote:
I think that very many kiters in this forum know about the fact that pinquick release are not easy to upon under load.

Last weekend, mmMeikel, Chief of Security for the KiteSurfThophy - the german championship - put up his table and showed how much efford it will take to open up a pin quick release.
By the way: his tabel was used to test all devices from all kiters before competition begunn.

I was amased and took pictures. The quick release system is put under load of measured 250 kg. And the question is: how much strenght will be needed to open it up?

it takes a almost 30 kg to release... way too much


Thanks for telling us about the testing and the KiteSurfTrophy contest. Interesting stuff. Did anyone tabulate the quick release models vs. release tension required to open it up? It would be good to post those specifics if possible.

I have had good luck with my pin release to date but then again, I couldn't easily simulate a load of 250 kg solo on the beach. Sounds like an important test, detailed results could be telling.

Thanks!


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