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 Post subject: Thin Ice - Has This Been Much Of A Problem?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:22 am 
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I just heard about a fatality that initially I had thought might have involved a snow kiteboarder but later learned that the man was ice boating. Skaters and ice fishermen have had to deal with judging the thickness and stability of ice for centuries. Has this been much of an issue for snow kiteboarders?

I know that various outfits are putting together educational snow kiteboarding videos. I have yet to see one of these but hope to soon. Living in Florida, snow kiteboarding is more of a distant concept than a tangible reality. I came across some tips and guidelines from other activities that might be of help for setting up an riding area for snow kiteboarding over a frozen lake or river.

http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/ierd/ic ... afety.html

http://steelheadsite.com/icesafety.html

http://www.iceshanty.com/iceshanty/ice_fishing.php


What precautions do you folks take in the early and late season with the ice is thinner than at other times?


Last edited by RickI on Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:09 am 
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Location: Joensuu
I read your links and in http://sailingsource.com/ice/articles/selfrescue.htm

is said:

"
A warm shower is almost always in order after a 32 degree swim. If a victim is having difficulty walking, talking or has a noticeable pallor or weak pulse in his extremities, call a rescue squad. Try to rewarm the victim in a shower or bath
"

What I have read, is that you shoud NEVER take victom to shower or bath.

Why not?

Because shower/bath makes blood circulating much faster and the cold blood goes to hearth and that can be fatal.

more info from next links (which are in finnish)
http://www2.fimr.fi/fi/palvelut/jaapalv ... uhkaa.html
http://194.89.205.3/sm/pelastus/finopas ... Hypotermia
http://www.tky.hut.fi/~teepakki/retkeil ... /hypo.html

about same is said in english
http://www.hypothermia.org/fieldchart.htm

which says that you can take shower only if body temp is above 35C

So warm shower is not so good idea?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:17 am 
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Ismo wrote:
I read your links and in http://sailingsource.com/ice/articles/selfrescue.htm

is said:

"
A warm shower is almost always in order after a 32 degree swim. If a victim is having difficulty walking, talking or has a noticeable pallor or weak pulse in his extremities, call a rescue squad. Try to rewarm the victim in a shower or bath
"

What I have read, is that you shoud NEVER take victom to shower or bath.

Why not?

Because shower/bath makes blood circulating much faster and the cold blood goes to hearth and that can be fatal.

more info from next links (which are in finnish)
http://www2.fimr.fi/fi/palvelut/jaapalv ... uhkaa.html
http://194.89.205.3/sm/pelastus/finopas ... Hypotermia
http://www.tky.hut.fi/~teepakki/retkeil ... /hypo.html

about same is said in english
http://www.hypothermia.org/fieldchart.htm

which says that you can take shower only if body temp is above 35C

So warm shower is not so good idea?


Good points. Your long experience in managing things in hypothermic environments in Finland is showing. Looking at the symptoms described in the reference that you mentioned:

A warm shower is almost always in order after a 32 degree swim. If a victim is having difficulty walking, talking or has a noticeable pallor or weak pulse in his extremities, call a rescue squad. Try to rewarm the victim in a shower or bath"

The symptoms don't preclude severe hypothermia and as such putting a victim into a bath can be dangerous for the reasons that you give. Thanks for catching this. I will delete the reference from my original posting.

I just came across a reference in English from Alaska that provides the same precaution that you mentioned for severe hypothermia cases (as constrasted to mild).


Assessment of Patient
Severe Hypothermia: If the patient is cold and has any of the following signs or symptoms, he is considered to have severe hypothermia:

a. Temperature of 90° F (32.2° C) or less.
b. Depressed vital signs, such as a slow pulse and/or slow respiration.
c. Altered level of consciousness, including slurred speech, staggering gait, decreased mental skills, or the lack of response to verbal or painful stimuli.
d. No shivering in spite of being very cold. (Note: This sign is potentially unreliable and may be altered by alcohol intoxication.)

Mild Hypothermia: If the patient is cold and does not have any of these signs or symptoms, he is considered to have mild hypothermia.

D.
Treatment for Severe Hypothermia with Signs of Life (e.g. Pulse and Respirations Present

Treat the patient as outlined in sections B and C above with the following exceptions:
a. Do not put severely hypothermic patients in a shower or bath.
b. Do not give a patient oral fluids unless he or she is capable of swallowing and protecting his or her airway.
Treat patients who are hypothermic very gently (do not rub or manipulate extremities).


C.
Treatment for Mild Hypothermia


Treat the patient as outlined in Section B.
If there is no way to get to a medical facility, rewarm the patient gradually by:
a. Placing patient in as warm an environment as possible.
b. Increasing heat production through exercise and calorie/fluid replacement. This method of adding heat is particularly important when emergency care is not readily available as in remote or prolonged transport environment.
c. Rewarming passively through the application of insulated heat packs to high heat transfer/loss areas such as the head, neck, underarms, sides of the chest wall, and groin, and heavy insulation to prevent further heat loss.
d. Considering warm showers and warm bath if the patient is alert. (FOR MILD HYPOTHERMIA ONLY)
e. Placing patient in a sleeping bag and providing contact with a warm body. The patient should not be placed a sleeping bag with another individual who is hypothermic. This method should be considered a last resort since it may endanger the rescuer and is less efficient than other methods.
Encourage the patient to drink warm fluids as soon as he, or she, is capable of swallowing and protecting his or her airway.

from: http://www.sarbc.org/hypo2.html#generalpoints

Still, considering some of the deceptive symptoms of severe vs. mild hypothermia (e.g. " ... including slurred speech, staggering gait, decreased mental skills ... ") your general prohibition on using baths to warm ANY hypothermia aside from the most obviously mild case, makes sense.

Another reference of treating hypothermia victims from Princeton University appears at:

http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/safety/hypocold.shtml

It further states:

"Do not expose a severely hypothermic victim to extremes of heat."

Thanks for your input!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:16 am 
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Whenever playing on the ice, I suggest having "ice claws" with you. You can buy a great pair from http://www.nordicskater.com - click on "safety" on the left. I also suggest taking along their Nordic Lifeline. These are standard items in my pack.

I live on a lake, and I'm waiting for it to freeze. The first time I go out, I'll wear a wetsuit under my snow gear just in case...

Seth


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:06 pm 
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Location: Vermont, USA
You can get in big trouble if you get far out on the ice on your board and break through. Your board spreads your weight, and it is likely that the ice is very thin if you are breaking through with a board on. It is unlikely that you will be able to climb back on this surface, but it may be strong enough to impede you from getting back (read-you are doomed). If you are finding you are breaking through, take the kite high to reduce your weight on the ice. Keep up your speed and go back the way you came. If you go into the water, you may be able to use your kite to pull you out. I have actually heard of individuals trying a snowboard on water with some success, so it is not out of the question that you will be able to sail out of your problem.

When the ice is questionable I wear my drysuit under my gear. I have gone swimming when my iceboat went through. Glad to have the rubber. I also wear my PFD to protect my back from slams on the hard surface. It would be helpful if you went through with a big sinker on your feet.

THere are many types of ice. Some very strong and some very weak. If you don't know the ice, stay where other perople have already proved its safety.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:45 pm 
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When people start driving their trucks on the ice you can be pretty sure it's going to support your body weight! It doesn't take much thickness of ice to support your weight - thing to watch out for is uneveness: there can be areas that are much thinner.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:09 am 
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kiteny wrote:
Whenever playing on the ice, I suggest having "ice claws" with you. You can buy a great pair from http://www.nordicskater.com - click on "safety" on the left. I also suggest taking along their Nordic Lifeline. These are standard items in my pack.

I live on a lake, and I'm waiting for it to freeze. The first time I go out, I'll wear a wetsuit under my snow gear just in case...

Seth


Thanks for mentioning this Seth. Some images from the site at
http://www.nordicskater.com/safety/ appear below:

Image

Image

Image

It sounds like some of the snowkiting participants have a considerable amount of practical experience in dealing with ice hazards. Gary's point ...

"It is unlikely that you will be able to climb back on this surface, but it may be strong enough to impede you from getting back (read-you are doomed)."

is particularly telling and could leave you without any viable options. Of course having a good exposure suit on can buy some critical time to perhaps sort out a solution or allow for rescue before hypothermia removes all options. How many snow kiteboarders take this precaution in early and late season or times when questionable ice might be present?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:58 pm 
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Location: Saint John, NB Canada
here is link to an Ice formation emperature chart that can be used as a guideline...I picked up a pair of hand grip strenthening dudads from walmart and cut them with grinder to make claws...5 bucks and you get 2 sets..

http://www.maineskeptic.com/iceformationchart.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:19 pm 
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Posts: 87
Location: Finland
Always have a cell phone in waterproof (minigrip etc.) plastic bag or similar when you go out on ice. It can save your life.

Other thing to consider is how to get easily rid of your skiis or snowboard when you are in water. Some bindings are very hard to open (especially some setp ins with small releases). Try sometimes in summer...

Ismo is right with showers and hypothremia. In light hyportermia you can use shower or bath. If you go into bath, you must leave your arms and legs outside the water to prevent the cold blood to start to circulate too fast and stop your heart.

And no alcohol! (Hmm... maybe for the rescue team ;)

My two cents...

VESKU


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:20 am 
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A fellow broke through the ice recently. He survived by pulling himself out with his kite fortunately. It seemed appropriate to bring this back up to the top.

Details about the incident and related information appear at:
http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2325456


Last edited by RickI on Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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