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 Post subject: Dynamic 5th line working well
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 7:50 pm 
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About a week ago, I posted this message in the thread about the future of “Câ€


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kf Dynamic 5th drawing-no cleat shown.JPG
kf Dynamic 5th drawing-no cleat shown.JPG [ 118.5 KIB | Viewed 3271 times ]
kf Ozone style  5th plus cleat.JPG
kf Ozone style 5th plus cleat.JPG [ 121.85 KIB | Viewed 3270 times ]
kf dynafic 5th cleat + line pocket.JPG
kf dynafic 5th cleat + line pocket.JPG [ 123.14 KIB | Viewed 3271 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:39 pm 
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Zilla: Thanks for those - I downloaded them for reference.

Question however: on the OZ bar are there three lines coming thru the bar? Is the primary adjustment line a loop from the chicken loop up to the ring - then back - leaving a dangling tail when pulled in?

Did the 5th change color ... does it come down - back up thru ring and then back thru bar ... or stopping at bar? I don't much like those 180's the 5th appears to make but I guess it can be pretty beefy and easily replaced.

I've made most of my 5th's adjustable but not yet dynamic. ..but then I got lazy and used a Naish Shift setup which has a nice elastic take-up for the slack needed in the 5th.

j i m


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:57 pm 
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Wetstuff wrote:
Zilla: Thanks for those - I downloaded them for reference.

Question however: on the OZ bar are there three lines coming thru the bar?

No. Only 2 lines go thru the hole in the bar. Both lines are part of the Power Line complex. Starting at the green swivel, the line on the left is tied to the "eye" on the top of the swivel....the line then goes up and slides freely thru a long hole in the metal support piece (like the Slingshot manufactured piece that the sheet cleat screws into) that holds the sheet cleat. the line continues up thru the bar and joins in a fixed "Y" to the second part of the Power Line which continues up to the highest blue ring, where it passes thru the ring and goes back down to be fixed at the lower blue ring. The red 5th line starts at this lower ring, and is fixed to the ring.
The part of the main power line which follows the "Y" to the right, then loops thru the lower blue ring and goes down thru the bar and then through the second long hole in the support piece for the sheet cleat, where it exits the hole and goes back up thru the end of the cleat and over the teeth of the cleat, where it can be engaged for adjustment.

The black front line leader, which, above top of the drawing splits into the 2 front lines, is fixed to the upper blue ring. I labeled it "power line" in the drawing. Hope that helps clarify things.

Is the primary adjustment line a loop from the chicken loop up to the ring - then back - leaving a dangling tail when pulled in? I think the answer is yes.

Did the 5th change color ? No. does it come down - back up thru ring and then back thru bar ... or stopping at bar? No. I don't much like those 180's the 5th appears to make but I guess it can be pretty beefy and easily replaced.

I've made most of my 5th's adjustable but not yet dynamic. ..but then I got lazy and used a Naish Shift setup which has a nice elastic take-up for the slack needed in the 5th.

The dynamic 5th line system is what I am all excited about, because it is working sooooo well for me. It has revolutionized kiting for me in crappy conditions. It is like having a bow kite in many respects. If you are exploring the world of 5th lines, don't overlook the dynamic 5th!

j i m


I will post some pictures of elements of my home made dynamic 5th line system. This is the system RRD is using on their TDB for Wave 2 kites, but believe me, it is not just for wave kites. I can't wait to see pictures of the RRD bar...I am sure they covered all the bases in their design!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:03 am 
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Location: PBKiteboarding.com Sales-Repair-Lessons Ozone, Aboards, Flysurfer, OR, Canada USA Worlwide
Cool drawings and thinking... been working on it as well... The trickiest thing is dealing with a full spinning bar, (multiple spins)... when the 5th is working with pully below the bar... but for less spins it's ok... cruising...
Workig on something that happens all above the bar...
Paul


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:57 am 
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how does the kite perform if you pull the 5th in so much?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:40 pm 
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Toby wrote:
how does the kite perform if you pull the 5th in so much?


If you are asking about the "dynamic 5th line system", the answer is: "Better than it has ever performed before!!"....huge wind range like a bow, and instant depower to the point of falling out of the sky....when the 5th line is adjusted right, the back lines do not go really slack when you push the bar out for depower, so you can control the kite.

It appears that the "magic formula" for the 5th line to work really well is the 2:1 length ratio of the 5th line to the power line.

This system is nothing new in the history of kiting as Dr Lightwind explained a couple of years ago (he called it Dynamic Pitch Control). I can post the topic is anyone is interested.

Others (Dr LIghtwind, Live2kite, nbbowers, etc.) have talked about this system in the past, and I have trouble understanding why it did not catch on big time. I have only found 2 potential problems with the use of the system, neither of which would prevent myself or other experienced kiters from using it. These are:

(1) Line wear necessitating replacement of one meter long segments of the 5th line and the power line at a possible cost of $10. ....maybe every 50 hours of use.

(2) The fact that the bar does not go flying out to maximum depower when the bar is released. I, along with anyone else that wants to be able to spin the bar, consider this a positive feature of the system, but the fact remains that to place the bar in the full depower position, the kiter must "gently" push the bar out...no real effort is needed to do this ....just a little stickness of the bar on the lines.

The system is probably not indicated for beginners with less than 50 hours of experience, or for those who can not "think on their feet". Of course Kiteboarding in general is probably not the best activity for those who can not think on their feet.

More on the system later......


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:57 pm 
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Toby: If I cleat up on my adjustable 5th to get the kite in a more 'nose over' position, changing the AOA ... the bottom end is gone but a large kite feels like a smaller kite in gusty conditons.

I figure with a dynamic 5th the effect will be constantly adjustable. I am inclined to use small blocks/pulleys rather than rings to smooth out the feel. I would not be without a 5th on a kite larger than 12M.

j i m


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:05 pm 
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Congrats Kitezilla. Looks very nice. Simple, yet effective.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:54 pm 
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i swear RRD used almost the exact system (pulley at the chicken loop) a few years ago in their 'wave system bar' or something. i've always thought it was a good idea, but have never gotten around to putting a 5th on any of my kites. maybe this summer i'll do some tinkering and be sure to post it up. awesome stuff kitezilla.

.devin


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:47 pm 
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Kitezilla

I have been messing with a depower system like your second non dynamic drawing (ozone instinct style) but with an adjustable 5th. It's like a flexifoil axis adjustable 5th with a cleat for the 5th above the bar combined with the new nova (or ocean rodeo or turbo diesel) style depower line with the cleat under the bar. I have only tested on land but it seems promising. I will post more when I get some water time.

The one question I have is right now I just have the 5th attached to the 5th line attachment only at the kite and without any bridle to the shoulders to control the kite's arc (remember this is a rage II). Its good in that if I pull enough tension on the 5th it flattens the kite out for more surface area, but I am also concerned that will be a bad thing in high winds when I am trying to get the kite tip for depower and all the kite will do is flatten? Do you have any experience with this with your dynamic system? Did you need a Y bridle at the kite on the 5th line to maintain the kites arc in high winds and a depowered situation? I think the RRD wave has a bridle that goes all the way to the tips to maintain the arc with depowering.


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