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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:15 pm 
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frankm1960 wrote:

I've been following this thread the whole time and there is nothing in this thread that suggests or proves the light wind claims made by epic to be false :) IMO.


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I hear ya... I saw that too. The thing is Dimitry is heavier, on shorter lines, smaller kite, smaller board... which is why I was saying nothing was resolved during that demo.


You only get to say one of these things. The claim he made was that he could kite in 2 to 4 knots. You cannot argue that he cannot compete because he is heavier.

The burden of proof will on the person making the claim. You cannot just say "Oh it was averaging 3 knots", and then leave it to the rest of the world disprove it.

No one is saying it is a shitty kite. What is being disputed is a claim that you can kiteboard in walking speed wind.
Quote:
I've seen videos and heard comments from folks that TRIED the kite which suggest they are more true than not true.

They have access to a prototype kite?
Quote:
So I'm not sure where you're getting the "over the top" claims from (yet) unless you have tried the kite yourself?


It is by judging how reasonable a claim is. It is called face validity.

If you and Old would try a thought experiment. Do not take this as an attack on anything. I tried asking before but never really got an answer. Let us imagine you standing on the beach trying to launch your kite in no wind.
You'll say..there is no wind. Cannot kite in no wind there is not enough energy to keep the weight of all that material and bladder to pull it AND me in those conditions, if you start walking backwards in walking speed...would you think it reasonable to be able to launch your kite? and fly it? Or do you think you';ll just really drag your kite along the beach? Do you find it reasonable that a kite could hold its own weight in addition to pulling you along in walkingspeed wind?

The point here is that sure it probably does fly in light wind...but so does a lot of other great light wind kites. I have been surprised more than once at how early I can ride and have fun with the naish fly...but 2 knots? No way.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:37 pm 
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Taut-I made no claim about the Infinty V3 kite, what I did was comment on the claims and intentions of some forum members, and also said I believed what Dimitri reported with a meter 40 feet in the air and had a number of random witnesses.
If you check my posting history, you will find that I rarely (if ever) make any specific claims about kite gear, with numbers and such.
What I am willing to do, is comment on gear I have been on, which I am able to give feedback about.
I will give feedback comparing two things I've tested or owned, but never with very specific numbers, because I'm not a person who checks numbers.
I've never even looked at a wind meter, and I don't follow wind reports, just not my thing at all.
But I am also willing to call it when I see someone attacking something because of an ulterior agenda, like folks often call you out on your Naish bias, when in non Naish threads.
I find that you are one of the most reasonable posters, in those cases though.
UKSurf wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if the Infinity V3 and Oxygen wouldnt getting going and staying upwind any sooner than I would on my Nitro 14M and Airush Sector 60
Not sure that would surprise anyone else either.
As we all know, the Sector 60 (like the lightwind directional board Supa used) allows a kiter to plane and go upwind with far less kite.
The Infinity V1 & V2 were primarily designed to allow kiters to have fun doing tricks in lightwind conditions (which would be primarily on a twintip).
If you read the thread on the original Infinity, I believe that is what Dimitri said he wanted out of his lightwind kite.
That's why it's a three strut, medium aspect, non racing, freestyle/freeride kite shape.
There are certainly bigger kites out there, and there are a handful of higher aspect LW kites out there now that are great at what they are designed to do.
Many people who have tested the Infinity (with no agenda to maintain) have found that it does exactly as Epic says it does (and have reported that), but it is not the kite for everyone.
My buddy with an Edge 15M and a Sector (just like your rig) likes what he has because he wants to cruise quickly from point A to point B in light wind.
The Oxygen is not designed to be the board that goes out the lightest, it was designed with the same goals as the Infinity, to be able to jump and do freeride/freestyle tricks in lightwind.


Last edited by Oldnbroken on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:04 am 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
Taut-I made no claim about the Infinty V3 kite, what I did was comment on the claims and intentions of some forum members, and also said I believed what Dimitri reported with a meter 40+ feet in the air and a whole pile of witnesses.

I get this though, I really do, and the video albeit a little boring looks to me like there is a lot more than 2-4 knots. Just from watching how the board is pulled along.
I enjoy D. engagement, but I think maybe this time it is a little on the optimistic side of things :-)\
Quote:
If you check my posting history, you will find that I rarely (if ever) make any specific claims about kite gear, with numbers and such.
What I am willing to do, is comment on gear I have been on, which I am able to give feedback about.

Sure I think we are similar there. I generally try to not say anything about gear have tried and didn't like simply because someone might have different experience and feel that I am stepping on that.
Quote:

But I am also willing to call it when I see someone attacking something because of an ulterior agenda, like folks often call you out on your Naish bias, when in non Naish threads.
I find that you are one of the most reasonable posters, in those cases though.
.

I clearly have an affinity for Naish gear. I still try to be balanced, and I certainly do not claim their gear will reverse gravity. I like them because I think they make solid gear that have given me to much fun the past years.

I generally try to not consider people's motives. I try to take a post on its face value otherwise it involves too much cognitive work for me ;-)

Again I am not questioning D. motives, or the kites ability to go in light wind, but I still have problems understanding the hold on the 2-4 knot claim. I do think some explanations for the wind meter has been put forth in terms of reports and wind direction. I know for sure that wind meters around here can report very differently at different directions.

Anyways I think this has come to a standstill.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:21 am 
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As usual, you are reasonable and find a way to make peace.
I like that about you a lot, and wish that I had a bigger part of that in me. :oops:
I suspect Dimitri's intentions are as straight as an arrow, and can see that he is just trying his best, to run a small business.
I have admitted many times that Dimitri's super enthusiasm might be annoying to those that hate that sort of behavior and attitude, but I am always surprised by some folks willingness to show that about themselves.
Me being a small business owner also, I root for the little guy more often than not.
.

.

.


Last edited by Oldnbroken on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:33 am 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
The Infinity V1 & V2 were primarily designed to allow kiters to have fun doing tricks in lightwind conditions (which would be primarily on a twintip


Sure but there is nothing remarkable about them as is being claimed here - the Slingshot Turbine is also designed for lightwind tricks and is very competitively priced and has special light weight construction materials. There are alot of companies out there producing alot of very good products. There is some questions about how good the infinity is at going upwind in light winds - which for alot of riders is very important, perhaps it sits further back in the window to give more grunt but at the cost of upwind performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:49 am 
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I flew the Epic Infinity and thought it was more kite than I wanted, V2 goes upwind fine, but for me it's a bit much in gusty lake conditions.
I feel the same way about Blade Fat Lady, too much grunt, not enough top end in a gust.
Big fan of the Wainman Big Mama 15M, felt just right when I took her out for a ride.
Flew the Turbine V1 and thought it was pretty bad, I've heard that the second gen was much improved.
I've heard great things about the Zephyr from some of my pals, but have not been on one yet.
I have not really flown a monster kite that I've loved, since my Slingshot Machine 17.5M died.
But I'm not looking super hard either.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:22 am 
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Once again guys, I have nothing to hide. My designer Momi and I designed the INFINITY v1,v2 and working on the v3 to bring you the ultimate FUN light wind kite that has the power of an 19 meter but turns on command and feels like a 14 meter kite. The INFINITY kites were designed to have fun in 7 to 12 knots max on a Twin Tip. But also can be used on a Surf Board if you like or Race Board. And now I have tested the INFINITY V3 on an SUP board in 2 to 4 knots. (see videos)
Send me your address and will send you the INFINITY for you to test and see it's performance in light wind for yourself.
Now how is that for c o n f i d e n c e .
Its your call.
:thumb:

P.S. But again kiting on an SUP in 4 knots is not for every one.








Last edited by Dimitri M on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:06 am 
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... I've got a demo V2 on the way to me as we speak so hopefully soon, I can give you a perspective from a super-heavy weight. I liked the Fatlady so this should be fun! :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:26 am 
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tautologies wrote:
frankm1960 wrote:

I've been following this thread the whole time and there is nothing in this thread that suggests or proves the light wind claims made by epic to be false :) IMO.


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I hear ya... I saw that too. The thing is Dimitry is heavier, on shorter lines, smaller kite, smaller board... which is why I was saying nothing was resolved during that demo.


You only get to say one of these things. The claim he made was that he could kite in 2 to 4 knots. You cannot argue that he cannot compete because he is heavier.
Yes I can and will argue lighter kiter, bigger kite, longer lines, larger board :). Want a level playing field. No to kiting in 2-4kts. He said it would stay in the air in 2-4kts, not that he could kitesurf on the water in 2-4kts.

The burden of proof will on the person making the claim. You cannot just say "Oh it was averaging 3 knots", and then leave it to the rest of the world disprove it.
Ok. Then the op and supa have the burden of proof because they're the ones making the claims that Dimitry's claims are BS :lol: that's what started this whole thread :lol: . But I hear what you're saying. That day at Cocoa beach should'a revealed the truth... but just added more light wind claims and flames.

No one is saying it is a shitty kite. What is being disputed is a claim that you can kiteboard in walking speed wind.
I know you aren't disparaging the kite... and myse :lol: I disagree with what you're saying but I do see your point
Quote:
I've seen videos and heard comments from folks that TRIED the kite which suggest they are more true than not true.

They have access to a prototype kite?
Yes. Dimitry brought one to Cocoa beach remember? and supa didn't even take it out on the water when he had the chance :lol:
Quote:
So I'm not sure where you're getting the "over the top" claims from (yet) unless you have tried the kite yourself?


It is by judging how reasonable a claim is. It is called face validity.
Dimitry's claims are supported by real video, people who demo'd the kite etc... the op and supa are only offering their opinion and lot of speculation.

If you and Old would try a thought experiment. Do not take this as an attack on anything. I tried asking before but never really got an answer. Let us imagine you standing on the beach trying to launch your kite in no wind.
You'll say..there is no wind. Cannot kite in no wind there is not enough energy to keep the weight of all that material and bladder to pull it AND me in those conditions, if you start walking backwards in walking speed...would you think it reasonable to be able to launch your kite? and fly it? Or do you think you';ll just really drag your kite along the beach? Do you find it reasonable that a kite could hold its own weight in addition to pulling you along in walkingspeed wind?
[color=#0040FF]Even supa admitted the V3 will stay up in 4kts. But no ones said anything about kitesurfing in 4kts[/color]

The point here is that sure it probably does fly in light wind...but so does a lot of other great light wind kites. I have been surprised more than once at how early I can ride and have fun with the naish fly...but 2 knots? No way.

Really need to list the those light wind claims somewhere so we're all on the same page :lol:

edit: I had a look at the videos again... so my numbers above aren't quite right...4kts he can kitesurf on the SUP... it'll stay in the air in 2kts i guess. The videos are there... need a wind meter mounted on the kite. :D I'm not sure about the min wind required to ride his TT... I think the claim was 7kts.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:03 pm 
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Hello Mr.frankm1960,
You can ride a Twin Tip board such as the OXYGEN 135X47cm on the INFINITY V2 in (7 to 10 knots) and have fun. But it cannot be 4 to 7 knots. It has to be from (7 to 9-10-11 knots). And that is if you are around 160 to 180 lbs. If you are a lighter person you might be able to ride it in (6 to 9 knots). I am 180 lbs and I have kited on the INFINITY v2 on a Twin Tip in 5 to 7 knots but that was no fun at all because I could not do anything, only back and forth and trying to stay up wind. And that was on a Twin Tip (135x47cm).



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