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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:46 pm 
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nikalaitzian wrote:
Hi guys and happy new year

could someone give a list e.g. what size of foil kite you need when you use a 10 meter LEI?

thanks in advance


Hi man, if you use 10m LEI, the Speed 4 8m, would be a great choice, would will get better wind range and the turning it's the same.
PMU is still 10 years behind with his claims, it's 2013 and the kite industry is moving everyday ...
the Speed 4 is insane ... stabile,strong, safe ....

It's hard to compare foil and LEI in general. too many brands, types of kites, conditions ...

if you want some advice, specify for what do you want to use the kite??


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:01 pm 
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joffaburger wrote:
Moved to a foil kite 5 years ago (flysurfer pulse 10m) after getting shoulder tendinitis from a switch 3 with a very long throw (and yes probably poor riding technique learning to ride a surfboard). The very short throw of the Pulse 2 and the very soft bar pressure from the bar helped me continue to kitesurf on my surfboard. My experience with a RAM air kite was mixed so here it is....

At first the kite performed very nicely although it needs to be flown slightly differently to an LEI but there is also that difference changing from a bow to a C or delta as I have also experienced with LEI's each kite design has it's own sweet spot and flying characteristics. I found after 6-9 months that the RAM started performing very poorly especially in gusty conditions I assume this was due to bridle stretching, I did manage to trim the bridle regularly to what I thought was intended spec however as already stated these are complicated bridles with many attachment points and I'm not sure if I did a perfect job! In the end I couldn't get the kite to feel anywhere near how it performed during the first 3 - 6 months of it's life. I think the kite and the bridles became quickly blown out as I used this kite exclusively from 15 to almost 30 knots as I had no smaller kite to switch too...

The kite was expensive and an attempt to resell the kite at half its purchase price failed (although it did have a major repair to the canopy which was expertly repaired). As far as RAM air kiters being weirdos I can honestly say that you find out who your real friends are on a kite beach when you switch to a RAM air kite! Many of the people who used to help me launch suddenly lost their hands as I flew LEI kites for 3 years before trying a RAM air I would have to say the guys on beach changed their attitude towards me rather than I became weirdo overnight!

The biggest advantage I found with the flysurfer was that I could set up and self launch in at least a third of the time it would take an LEI with also the same pack down advantage approx 4-5 mins or less. Hot launching the kite in under 25 knots was a breeze without pre inflation as if the kite is not pre inflated this gives you more time in the hot launch zone without really having much power so easy to actually control even though the kite flaps around a bit and then further and fully inflate at zenith where it was safe. I actually enjoyed using this kite and only wished I could afford at least 2 of them i.e. 8m and 12m would have been ideal size in my area with a 5/6m thrown in for crazy days!

Alias it was not to be and as I recovered the full use of my left shoulder again and then opted for a couple delta kites 9m and 12m for the same price or less than 1 flysurfer! The delta kites (eclipse kites) have served me well and was very happy to be back on LEI kites again for many of the reasons described in this post and I don't disagree but RAM kites are also evolving like LEI's and if I had the bucks I would probably buy 2 or 3 of the new flysurfer unities but LEI's are more diverse in design and cheaper and in the end I will keep my so called friends at the kite beach :-?

For the average kitesurfer who is not interested in breaking speed records and doing kite loops a RAM air kite may be a viable option for people looking for a soft easy ride particularly as RAM air kites evolve and improve their stability.... :)

Thanks Joffa - have incorporated your observations into the standard dissertation (see p1). Cheers, Pumpy


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:06 pm 
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ChristoffM wrote:
OK, we should nod feed the troll, but the posts are funny. So professionally done, PMU has more references than most scholarly articles. And interesting mostly. Copy and paste perhaps, but it must have taken a lot of time to develop that post in the first place.

The air mass inside the kites is interesting, but surely not nearly as high as PMU claims? I get a mass of 1.2kg/m3 x 19m2 x 0.5 x 0.2m = 2.28kg (assuming 20cm profile thickness nearly traingular). That is almost doubling the mass of the deluxe edition if I remember its mass correctly, but far from 11kg.

Referencing your own posts as a source of authority is not professional. Spending all that time on a copy'n'paste displays kookiness of the highest order.

Good to see PMU still misses the point though - it'd be a horrid shock if he actually got the right end of the stick for a change :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:56 pm 
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duloid wrote:
nikalaitzian wrote:
Hi guys and happy new year

could someone give a list e.g. what size of foil kite you need when you use a 10 meter LEI?

thanks in advance


Hi man, if you use 10m LEI, the Speed 4 8m, would be a great choice, would will get better wind range and the turning it's the same.
PMU is still 10 years behind with his claims, it's 2013 and the kite industry is moving everyday ...
the Speed 4 is insane ... stabile,strong, safe ....

It's hard to compare foil and LEI in general. too many brands, types of kites, conditions ...

if you want some advice, specify for what do you want to use the kite??


snowkiting


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:34 pm
Posts: 172
Location: SVK
nikalaitzian wrote:
duloid wrote:
nikalaitzian wrote:
Hi guys and happy new year

could someone give a list e.g. what size of foil kite you need when you use a 10 meter LEI?

thanks in advance


Hi man, if you use 10m LEI, the Speed 4 8m, would be a great choice, would will get better wind range and the turning it's the same.
PMU is still 10 years behind with his claims, it's 2013 and the kite industry is moving everyday ...
the Speed 4 is insane ... stabile,strong, safe ....

It's hard to compare foil and LEI in general. too many brands, types of kites, conditions ...

if you want some advice, specify for what do you want to use the kite??


snowkiting


In some cases is foil better then LEI in some is LEI useless.
For the foil
- easier to carry, specially when you do backcountry, much more lighter and smaller backpack
- faster and easier to repair
- could ride in low temperatures
- faster set up and packing
- safer is High mountains

For the LEI
- more stable is gust (maybe)

where do you live or where do you plan to ride ... check the local riders what they ride and what they would recommend to you.

Have a friend who ride LEI on water and foil on land and snow, some friends ride LEI everywhere and some foil ..... what ever you feel more comfortable for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:06 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:22 am
Posts: 1267
Location: PBKiteboarding.com Sales-Repair-Lessons Ozone, Aboards, Flysurfer, OR, Canada USA Worlwide
I'm working on my 3 kite Quiver lightest for travel with a splitboard 145cm board.
8m 12m 21m kite all in one small 80cm bag... Most efficient small package...
Man this Sport is amazing! Having a blast in these vids!
Try it all and you may be surprised you don't know what you love till you experience it...! :)
Talk to people who know both...
Get good back up info, knowledge and support along the way for more success..!

www.PBKiteboarding.com

But anyway see some smiles here 12m 15m



And some Man.. I just want to kite today... 21m & Flyrace. Window of time!



And some Airtime! 30 knots on a 12m, smallest kite I had that trip.



Ah but flying Inflatables too... Ozone C4 10m. with the fin! Fin power to be on a smaller kite.



Oh Man Snow on 12m Speed Skis:



Oh Snow 12m Speed Sboawboard with Swivel Plates.... Feels like Kiteboarding... Keep experimenting!



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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:32 pm 
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ChristoffM wrote:
OK, we should nod feed the troll, but the posts are funny. So professionally done, PMU has more references than most scholarly articles. And interesting mostly. Copy and paste perhaps, but it must have taken a lot of time to develop that post in the first place.

The air mass inside the kites is interesting, but surely not nearly as high as PMU claims? I get a mass of 1.2kg/m3 x 19m2 x 0.5 x 0.2m = 2.28kg (assuming 20cm profile thickness nearly traingular). That is almost doubling the mass of the deluxe edition if I remember its mass correctly, but far from 11kg.


Thanks ChristoffM. Your point about the inertial mass of entrapped air is valid. My calculations are as follows: 1.2kg/m3 x 19m2 x 0.2m = 4.56kg and 1.2kg/m3 x 21m2 x 0.2m = 5.04kg (assuming 30cm profile thickness at the leading edge and 10cm at the trailing edge). Initial calculations inadvertently included the mass of fabric and bridles (but were still out by a few kg). I've modified the problematic paragraph accordingly. Similarly, my calculations for entrapped air in large inflatables was over estimated (assuming the average radius of the leading edge is 10cm, the length of the leading edge is 10m, the average radius of the struts is 5cm, and the ave end-to-end length of the struts is 10m): (0.31m3 + 0.07m3) x 1.3kg/m3 (assuming ~10% gas compression) = 0.49kg. NB: The mass of entrapped air is still significantly greater than in large inflatables and is highly problematic, given you are trying to move this mass on the end of ~25m lines.
Cheers, Pumpy


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:44 pm 
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Location: europe
oh that might explain why my brick of milk is so heavy when it s empty....


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:44 am 
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A good "sea"comparison would be to see Foil vs LEI .............
.......at the Red Bull King of Air this next February

Are Foils even allowed to enter that competition :-? :?:


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 Post subject: Re: Foil / LEI comparisos on snow, land, sea
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:35 am 
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Pump me up wrote:
ChristoffM wrote:
OK, we should nod feed the troll, but the posts are funny. So professionally done, PMU has more references than most scholarly articles. And interesting mostly. Copy and paste perhaps, but it must have taken a lot of time to develop that post in the first place.

The air mass inside the kites is interesting, but surely not nearly as high as PMU claims? I get a mass of 1.2kg/m3 x 19m2 x 0.5 x 0.2m = 2.28kg (assuming 20cm profile thickness nearly traingular). That is almost doubling the mass of the deluxe edition if I remember its mass correctly, but far from 11kg.


Thanks ChristoffM. Your point about the inertial mass of entrapped air is valid. My calculations are as follows: 1.2kg/m3 x 19m2 x 0.2m = 4.56kg and 1.2kg/m3 x 21m2 x 0.2m = 5.04kg (assuming 30cm profile thickness at the leading edge and 10cm at the trailing edge). Initial calculations inadvertently included the mass of fabric and bridles (but were still out by a few kg). I've modified the problematic paragraph accordingly. Similarly, my calculations for entrapped air in large inflatables was over estimated (assuming the average radius of the leading edge is 10cm, the length of the leading edge is 10m, the average radius of the struts is 5cm, and the ave end-to-end length of the struts is 10m): (0.31m3 + 0.07m3) x 1.3kg/m3 (assuming ~10% gas compression) = 0.49kg. NB: The mass of entrapped air is still significantly greater than in large inflatables and is highly problematic, given you are trying to move this mass on the end of ~25m lines.
Cheers, Pumpy

See? Despite being smacked down over this stupid point, he keeps throwing up the same idiotic and WRONG twaddle, like it's dogma.


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