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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:56 pm 
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a Wind Farm 6 miles out won't have an effect on the beach. you can spin it all you like but it simply won't.


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:40 pm 
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Instead of misinterpreting my posts as well as the writings of multiple authorities in the wind energy field, I suggest YOU contact them, and explain your concerns quoting the aritcles you have read. I found these researchers to be very willing and open to discuss their area of research and more importantly calm a somewhat paranoid kiteboarder about a windfarm that is popping up that they're not "stealing our wind"


Johnny,
If this is how I am coming across then I obviously am not choosing my words correctly, not speaking clearly, and apologize. I am an engineer and data analyst and one thing I have learned from this is that a lot of kiteboarders are right brained. Seems you cannot have a simple technical discussion without emotion and someone assuming you are choosing sides on an issue. I was just trying to discuss some of the interesting findings of what is known and unknown. I did not intend to make a point or misrepresent anyone. I learned that by stating some facts that right brained people assume you are for or against an issue. I think from the very beginning I tried to say that for this proposed lease area I doubted there would be any harm to kiting. I only said that the science supports a "possible" "measureable" effect and a lot of information is unknown and still to be learned. I even pointed out that possible effects could be beneficial to kiteboarding. I have learned that for right brained people the term "measureable" means "significant". For engineers and scientist it just means you can detect it through instrumentation. Maybe I should have said "measureable" but likely insignificant. I think I said numerous time that I was not concerned. I clearly stated that I would support this because as a property owner on the OBX I have watched hundreds of homes wash in, and I am far more concerned about sea level rise. I do believe that a reduction in carbon emissions could reduce the rate of sea level rise. If in any way I come across paranoid suggesting that kiters need to be concerned that wind farms are going to ruin their spots and should be concerned, that was not my intent and I apologize for the confusion. As an egineer I am more interested in the science and solutions and not the problem. It is never black and white.

I did not mean to misrepresent you, but just did not feel what you described was representative of what is going on.
Quote:
The photo does not indicate large scale turbulence or pressure disruption outside of the immediate wind farm area just a bunch of selective air particals made visible and then mixed around by rotating blades. Take a bunch of smoke machines and spin em around in circles in front of a few low speed fans and the visual effect would be somewhat similar

There are clearly some very large changes in fluid dynamics far more then a "bunch of selective air particals made visible and then mixed around by rotating blades". I assumed that since you did not think it was indicative of wake turbulence, you were suggesting it was laminar. Was not sure how you could have one without the other.

I will say it one more time. I am not concerned for kiting due to this proposed lease area. I do not think at 6m that any effect would be detrimental to kiting, only measureable and probably "insignificant". I am definately not against wind energy. I do not think people should be concerned or against this, but be informed. I do think science can and will continue to better understand and mitigate the effects of wake turbulence and other negative effects within and external to large wind farms. I do think these issue I have discussed will become an increasing issue of concern for the industry, environmentalist, landowners, aviation, and maybe even wind sport advocates. I do know that turbines have been growing in size at nearly an exponential rate. There are 15 MW turbines with 100m rotors in development, and wind farms reaching nearly 200 turbines covering tens of square miles. I do think in the future that kiters could be effected by windfarms, does not mean I am paranoid or adverse to it. A more likely scenario would be a loss of a launch area due to easements and set back restrictions.


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:22 pm 
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Kitedude wrote:
a Wind Farm 6 miles out won't have an effect on the beach. you can spin it all you like but it simply won't.


If you are responding to my question with reference to doming I would like to point out I said 6 km not 6 miles... which is significantly less distance. So is that close enough to have an effect?


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:30 am 
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Stir up he air and prevent doming...very interesting idea indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:14 am 
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Johnny Rotten wrote:
I found these researchers to be very willing and open to discuss their area of research and more importantly calm a somewhat paranoid kiteboarder about a windfarm that is popping up that they're not "stealing our wind"


SSK wrote:

Johnny,
If this is how I am coming across then I obviously am not choosing my words correctly
,

Dammit stop misinterpreting my shit would ya! If you weren't such a pendantic socially retarded engineering type :wink: you'd be able to turn on your right brain on a little and understand that the paranoid kiteboarder I was referring to was not you but ME! Yes I've found myself at a wedding sitting next to some marine energy government big wig social retard engineering type :wink: trying to find something to talk about, and ended up spending the evening drawing diagrams of windfarms, their turbulent wake, googling papers and studies on phones and ipads and discussing the possible impact of wind farms on kiteboarding. Ultimately I ended up coming to the conclusion that I was a paranoid fool for even bringing up the topic but It was one of the most educational discussions I've had in a long time.

Now before ANYONE gets offended by my right brian "attack"on engineers, please consider MY probable background to be willing to have this type pedantic conversation with SSK or the governement guy in the first place.

SSK wrote:
I am an engineer and data analyst and one thing I have learned from this is that a lot of kiteboarders are right brained.


Sadly this isn't the kiteboarding community this is majority of the population in general As a data analyst I'm sure you've come across a situation where some anectotal photo or cutesy video showing 1 anomaly countering hundreds of thousands of data points and every study ever performed is displayed and this is what people remember and choose to believe.

For example [all hypothetical here] imagine there was a cute fuzzy fast flying endangered bird species that started nesting on wind turbine platforms because larger non native predators were frightened of the blades and or were too slow to navigate the turbines in the wind so wouldn't attack their nests. The popuation begins to thrive and makes more progress in 5 years on the windfarm then they have under 25 years of environmental protection. Some bird watcher goes out there makes a video to show the astounding progress and captures a rather inspirational video of the fuzzy father bird dancing through the turbine blades carrying his body weight in minnows bringing food back to the nest in order to show how well these birds have adapted to their surroundings

Then some NIMBY cottage owner, opposed to a potential wind farm development in their area takes said video off the web and edits it such that all you see is a baby bird calling for food. The father dancing through the turbine blades with his mouthful of minnows to some dark and dangerous anxiety inducing music, followed by a shot of an approaching turbine blade ending in a clap of music on a white screen. Then pans back to the cute baby bird calling for food with melancholy music inthe background.

BOOM! guy has the support of his ENTIRE community [in case you needed an apporach laughinman] even though EVERY single study supports that windfarms are FANTASTIC for that bird species. You can talk data till your blue in the face most people won't understand it and as a result won't trust you. All they remember is that harrowing fuzzy bird getting smoked by the evil wind turbines...cuz they "seen it" with their own eyes......when infact the fuzzy bugger made it....Like he does 8 times every day....

The horns rev wake photo was one of those anecdotal pieces of shit. A VERY cool and impressive photo. But a completely inaccurate representaition of the wake. And misleadingly gives the impression that the wake fans out turbulently and violently for miles indefinitiely. A few comments like "a picture is worth a thousands words" and "now I wouldn't kite near a wind farm" meant that the true wake was in need of further explanaiton.Your "You're wrong, I'm right" response was rather right brained and baseless...but hey you're a kiteboarder right? :wink: ... So again had to call you out. Otherwise everything else you presented was BANG ON well researched and very well written I enjoyed the discussion and learned some extra stuff reading the studies.... woulda liked to have you at that wedding, I mighta had a chance debating with that Marine Energy fellow.



Cheers brah!


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:41 am 
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Laughingman wrote:
This is an absolutely fascinating discussion.

SSK or anyone else who may have an opinion or facts to share, Now that I see even my home spot is slated for a large wind farm approximately 6km away from shore I am going to try to put a positive spin on this.
We often suffer from a condition called decoupling (we call it doming). When the water is cold and the wind is warm it has a tendency to separate from the water surface this works both ways warm water and and cold air seems to have the same effect. So it can be windy as hell slightly in land and the buoy about 6km out shows 20 kts but on the beach it is calm, its like the wind forms a dome over the beach. Do you think having a large wind farm 6kms out can have a positive effect by forcing the wind to mix and therefore not decouple?
Probably wishful thinking but wouldn't that be great?



Laughingman line extensions are much cheaper than a wind farm.....for doming go with 35 to 40 meter lines (or more) if you've got the beach space for it......and drop down to smaller kite size 9 -12m instead of flying a blimp.

Keep the kite high to keep power. lower it if you're getting too much. Or drop it real low mid jump to slack your lines and invert your body in crazy ways.....just be prepared to swim if you crash it. Cool feeling riding on glassy water in "NO wind"

The boosting can get a bit out of hand if you don't lower the kite or depower in some way to offset the rapidly increasing gradient.

.


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:17 am 
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Laughingman wrote:
Kitedude wrote:
a Wind Farm 6 miles out won't have an effect on the beach. You can spin it all you like, but it simply won't.


If you are responding to my question with reference to doming I would like to point out I said 6 km not 6 miles... which is significantly less distance. So is that close enough to have an effect?
I think he is responding to your thread title and to your original post, which is a link to the Outer Banks Sentinel article, which places the Kitty Hawk NC site at 6 miles offshore and the Wilmington NC location at 7-13 miles offshore.


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Laughingman wrote:
Kitedude wrote:
a Wind Farm 6 miles out won't have an effect on the beach. you can spin it all you like but it simply won't.


If you are responding to my question with reference to doming I would like to point out I said 6 km not 6 miles... which is significantly less distance. So is that close enough to have an effect?



I'm referring to the article you posted which states 6 miles

For the record I'm also an engineer. (I'm also currently studying a part time master in energy management which has a strong focus on Wind Turbines and wind Modelling)


Last edited by Kitedude on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Wow there was some whacky 'science' on the first few pages of this thread but glad it got cleared up. Johnny's responses made the most sense to me (are you an engineer of some kind by the way, dude?), and i think the point he was trying to make about the picture was something along the lines of "look, you can see the water vapour particles getting mixed up really well, so all the lumps and bumps in the wind will get mixed out too". laminar flow would be terrible in this case! you'd have 'holes' in the wind. good job it all get's mixed up! thank god for turbulent mixing :thumb:

with regards to the larger debate, I'd really like to direct you to this fantastic, free book that's considered the golden handbook for assessing renewables: http://www.withouthotair.com/
For those of you who haven't read it - the book essentially breaks down, and makes sensible, back of the envelope calculations on both our energy usage, and maximum possible potential energy generation from various renewables here in the UK. if you ever wondered about "how much does that use?" or "what's the potential of that?" you can just leaf through the relevant chapters. its great t get a handle on the scale of the problem.
A really important chapter is the 18th, in which the author adds everything up and addresses the big questions and goes through 'NIMBYism' and other practical issues - the result is rather depressing :( - suddenly nuclear seems pretty attractive :D

all in all, I'm pretty against wind turbines (i used to be all over them and other renewables), but for reasons from the larger debate about it's practicality (cost, materials, maintenance etc) and not cos it's "spoiling mah wind" or whatever


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:16 pm 
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@Samskiter,
Thanks for the link. That book is well written, and it is the facts without emotion

Since you like to read do yourself a favor and look at the following links:
http://www.earthtechling.com/2011/05/turbulent-wind-turbine-wakes-studied/
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2011/20110426_windwakes.html
http://www.nrel.gov/news/features/feature_detail.cfm/feature_id=1995
http://www.siemens.com/innovation/apps/pof_microsite/_pof-spring-2011/_html_en/wind-farms.html
They all pro wind or neutral scientific agencies, they include that specific image and describe the problem. Especially the last is from Siemens the leading manufacturer of wind turbines. After reading those see if you agree that the below is in any way an accurate description.
Quote:
think the point he was trying to make about the picture was something along the lines of "look, you can see the water vapour particles getting mixed up really well, so all the lumps and bumps in the wind will get mixed out too". laminar flow would be terrible in this case! you'd have 'holes' in the wind. good job it all get's mixed up! thank god for turbulent mixing.


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