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 Post subject: Re: POV Video - Deathlooping Kite Drags Rider Into A Rock Je
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:40 pm
Posts: 667
Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
Kiteus Maximus wrote:
Anyone have any idea how his center lines ended up wrapped around his bar? Looks like it occurred after a fall where he got slack in his lines and then picked the bar up with the center lines wrapped over the right side of the bar. This has never happened to me so I'm curious how the hell it happened.


It can be surprisingly easy. All you need are slack lines, inattention to bar position and a little bad luck.

The situations where it has occurred to me or a student (during a lesson) are when the kite crashes in surf and the kiter is pushed towards the kite (creating slack lines) while off balance and unable to see and then, while flailing around, one end of the bar goes through the lines. I assume that this could also happen during a bad fall without surf, but I've never personally seen it happen. The other, less usual situation, is where the kite is high and falls (like when hindenberging) and the kiter mistakenly tries to save it by wildly turning the bar all over the place and manages to put one end of the bar through the resulting slack lines.

It should also be noted that until this has happened to you once or twice, it's unlikely you'll figure it out right away (unless you're lucky enough to have seen the subject video).

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: POV Video - Deathlooping Kite Drags Rider Into A Rock Je
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:58 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:21 am
Posts: 5
I once had a long safety leash I wore hooked to the left side of my harness. Sometimes (riding left hand forward) I would boost big and do a 180 degree twist to the right at the top of my boost and my safety leash would fly around and catch the left side of my bar. When I would send the kite back to the left upon decent the leash would hold my bar down to the left and make my kite loop unexpectedly. It would literally be so tight I could not get the bar back to parallel. Needless to say I took a machete to that safety leash and bought a much shorter one. Problem solved but even being an experienced kiter I would have never guessed this would have happened.


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 Post subject: Re: POV Video - Deathlooping Kite Drags Rider Into A Rock Je
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 3:20 am
Posts: 211
RichardM wrote:
.
PVITfrumBYRAM wrote:
Very good observations from everyone. ........

When teaching students about the quick release systems, I always ask my students, what do you value more, your life or your 1500 dollar kite? I then make it clear that you need to know that answer before shit hits the fan because if you wait for it to happen and then ask the question, you end up dragged into a jetty......
........... As I did, I remembered I was riding suicide so I was going to go through some more yardage if I didn't ditch my secondary. Anyways, there was a jetty about 80-100 in front of me, but I knew I had a short amount of time .......
This is a spot I taught at and managed...........

Most people don't teach and I feel like few people really spend much time thinking about the scenarios and rarely observe them second hand. They probably don't practice emergencies, self landings and self rescues either. ......


Generally, the MOST DANGEROUS obstacles, in order of importance, are:
1. A road downwind (with traffic).
2. People (and pets).
3. A ROCK JETTY

Although I mostly agree with PVITfrumBYRAM’s other comments above, it seems that he teaches at a location where there is a jetty downwind. If this is the case, even though he hopefully controls his lessons such that his students are not in any danger during their lessons, the EXAMPLE he apparently sets by giving lessons at this location and personally kiting too close to this extremely dangerous obstacle is the type of behavior which PROMOTES thoughtless conduct, especially by novices who generally use other’s behavior as a guide.




Richard M.

All kiters showing up to where I taught are asked to speak with the school manager or Instructors to find out about rigging, launch protocol, obstacles and dangers, where to kite specifically...i.e. upwind away from lessons which are downwind from the jetty and several hundred feet out into the water away from the jetty or all bulkheads on the shoreline. The problem with this is other kiters, novice or experienced tend to hang around and obviously don't consider that they are too close to others or do not obey the rules of this site which are to stay away from lessons.

I think it was a poorly designed site since condos take up valuable launch space and shadow us from teaching with trainers on land. I personally would rather teach way upwind of our launch where we can can be 1000 feet out to sea and still in waist deep water. I teach safely and do not take students within several hundred feet of any obstacle.

As far as my own riding 80-100 feet away was an estimate of when I flagged the kite out where the kite was. Could have been further away for sure and also had been dragged a bunch during the initial fall and first loop afterwards so I was not riding all that close. Had I physically been within 100 feet when I first pulled the primary QR and it not worked, you better believe I would have ditch that kite on the jetty. That being said the question of "how can I save my kite" never once popped into my head. I believe that is the point I was trying to make.


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 Post subject: Re: POV Video - Deathlooping Kite Drags Rider Into A Rock Je
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:40 pm
Posts: 667
Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
PVITfrumBYRAM wrote:
RichardM wrote:
.
PVITfrumBYRAM wrote:
Very good observations from everyone. ........

When teaching students about the quick release systems, I always ask my students, what do you value more, your life or your 1500 dollar kite? I then make it clear that you need to know that answer before shit hits the fan because if you wait for it to happen and then ask the question, you end up dragged into a jetty......
........... As I did, I remembered I was riding suicide so I was going to go through some more yardage if I didn't ditch my secondary. Anyways, there was a jetty about 80-100 in front of me, but I knew I had a short amount of time .......
This is a spot I taught at and managed...........

Most people don't teach and I feel like few people really spend much time thinking about the scenarios and rarely observe them second hand. They probably don't practice emergencies, self landings and self rescues either. ......


Generally, the MOST DANGEROUS obstacles, in order of importance, are:
1. A road downwind (with traffic).
2. People (and pets).
3. A ROCK JETTY

Although I mostly agree with PVITfrumBYRAM’s other comments above, it seems that he teaches at a location where there is a jetty downwind. If this is the case, even though he hopefully controls his lessons such that his students are not in any danger during their lessons, the EXAMPLE he apparently sets by giving lessons at this location and personally kiting too close to this extremely dangerous obstacle is the type of behavior which PROMOTES thoughtless conduct, especially by novices who generally use other’s behavior as a guide.



Richard M.

All kiters showing up to where I taught are asked to speak with the school manager or Instructors to find out about rigging, launch protocol, obstacles and dangers, where to kite specifically...i.e. upwind away from lessons which are downwind from the jetty and several hundred feet out into the water away from the jetty or all bulkheads on the shoreline. The problem with this is other kiters, novice or experienced tend to hang around and obviously don't consider that they are too close to others or do not obey the rules of this site which are to stay away from lessons.

I think it was a poorly designed site since condos take up valuable launch space and shadow us from teaching with trainers on land. I personally would rather teach way upwind of our launch where we can can be 1000 feet out to sea and still in waist deep water. I teach safely and do not take students within several hundred feet of any obstacle.

As far as my own riding 80-100 feet away was an estimate of when I flagged the kite out where the kite was. Could have been further away for sure and also had been dragged a bunch during the initial fall and first loop afterwards so I was not riding all that close. Had I physically been within 100 feet when I first pulled the primary QR and it not worked, you better believe I would have ditch that kite on the jetty. That being said the question of "how can I save my kite" never once popped into my head. I believe that is the point I was trying to make.


Thanks for the clarification.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: POV Video - Deathlooping Kite Drags Rider Into A Rock Je
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:17 pm
Posts: 813
Wouldn't his eject have had a better chance of working if he had just leashed to his outside line instead? Looks like his outside lines were fine....This is exactly why I leash to my OSH ring on the outside line. If I eject, there's a damn good reason. It means I need to wrap the session up and regroup. I don't need the convenience of relaunching after an eject and hooking in to the centers. I never see anyone leashing to the outside lines....ever....funny how the kite companies advertise leashing to the outside line as 100% or full de-power and leashing to the inside line %90. Not that these percentages mean anything or have ever been studied seriously....that said, this guy was brave for posting. My kudos to him - I'm forwarding to all my buddies.


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 Post subject: Re: POV Video - Deathlooping Kite Drags Rider Into A Rock Je
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Posts: 2649
Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
if u leash outside line and spin a couple times by accident when you crash the primary leash won't work because it gets tangled in your lines, even your leash release can fail if it tangled in the wrong place. some mini-5th line safety systems are 90% depower but single center line or true 5th line safety systems are 100% depower, just like an oh shit handle. I think some kite brands also have full 100% depower on their mini-5th, it depends on the brand and year.


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 Post subject: Re: POV Video - Deathlooping Kite Drags Rider Into A Rock Je
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:54 am 
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Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 3:38 am
Posts: 3329
Location: Malibu
This a good example of why leashes are designed like shit... like most safety items on
kites.

When A kite goes to the leash there is no way to control the kite anymore.

The whole concept is that it has to depower. If it does not depower it means that there is something very wrong.

This is why the safety leash should not be strong. It should be strong enough to handle a depowered kite, but not strong enough to yank the hell out of a kiter. There should be a weak point that breaks
if the kiters is going to be yanked more than is safe.

Leash design has to improve

Sure a runnaway kite is a risk, but most likely less than one looping like mad dragging a dead weight after a catastrophic main safety failure.

Two carabiners at each end that a line could get snagged into and not come out again.


Last edited by FredBGG on Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: POV Video - Deathlooping Kite Drags Rider Into A Rock Je
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:56 am 
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Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 3:38 am
Posts: 3329
Location: Malibu
To help minimize the center likes getting wrapped around tha bar like what happened to the OP
I completely impregnate my center lines with bow wax. This makes the lines a bit stiffer and also makes them last a very very long time. Once you have the bow wax impregnated into the lines you can refresh the wax with a bow wax stick, much like a chapstick for your lips.


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 Post subject: Re: POV Video - Deathlooping Kite Drags Rider Into A Rock Je
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:15 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:37 pm
Posts: 1799
FredBGG wrote:
...
I completely impregnate my center lines with bow wax. ...
...


I wonder if my Q-Power lines will accept that Wax ; sounds
like an Idea worth trying !

Anything's worth, at least Trying , in the interest of Safety !!

Did i mention i've bin taken out "Twice" now , by a loose kite with
a broken leash ?

Bille


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