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 Post subject: Mutiny removes pulleys from their kites :-)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Some brands are going in the right direction and removing pulleys from the kites..
Kites are more direct, faster, more efficent if they are tuned right.

Mutiny removed pulleys from their kites in their new 2013 lineup, which is a right direction to go.

I dont understand why to use those indirect pulleys, which wear the lines and also brake.

Maybe without pulleys you lose a bit from windrange, but the you gain more from other things.


Also the new Mutiny kites look great.

whole range of new Mutiny kites is seen in this link below.

[url]
http://www.maxwave.ee/mutiny-lohede-valik-uuenes/[/url]


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 Post subject: Re: Mutiny removes pulleys from their kites :-)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:19 am 
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I compared two very similar bridled C kites recently.
One with a pulley and one with no pulley.
The one with the pulley had better low end and better top end.
The canopy must have been designed to give more bottom end, because they knew the pulley would allow more depower on the top.


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 Post subject: Re: Mutiny removes pulleys from their kites :-)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:25 am 
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C kite with a bridle involving pulleys isn't a true C kite?

Or, pray tell, which bridled 'C' kites did you try.


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 Post subject: Re: Mutiny removes pulleys from their kites :-)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:37 am 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
I compared two very similar bridled C kites recently.
One with a pulley and one with no pulley.
The one with the pulley had better low end and better top end.
The canopy must have been designed to give more bottom end, because they knew the pulley would allow more depower on the top.


pure c kites does not have pulleys. c hybrids maybe have. It depends on the kite.

Probably you felt what you felt and maybe that was so. But I doubt that pulleys were the factor which gave the better low end. Probably the difference comes from the difference in shape, the placement of struts and the placement of bridles.

Pulleys might give you a bit more depower. But if I could choose between more direct, faster kite or more depower. I go for direct and faster kite any day. The windrange is already very wide in direct connection kites also, so there is no need for that. And pulleys can always malfunction.


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 Post subject: Re: Mutiny removes pulleys from their kites :-)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:08 pm 
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Been in this sport ten years now and have never even seen a pulley break.

They can wear the bridle line if you don't have the brains to take that little bur off the roller where it's injection moulded, but I do that right after ditching the donkey dick!

Seriously, I understand the simplicity argument just fine, but its a bit like arguing against one pump systems that work really really really well.

Your welcome to not like me, but lets not paint them as a problem they simply are not.


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 Post subject: Re: Mutiny removes pulleys from their kites :-)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:05 pm 
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Pulleys don't break anymore and the bridle holds up for 300 sessions or so.
I ride a Fone Bandit, it has pulleys, and it is more responsive than a few non pulley kites i have tried.


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 Post subject: Re: Mutiny removes pulleys from their kites :-)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:54 pm 
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two things i hate about pulleys

1) bridle wraps

so annoying. Pulleys give you more depower yes, but the way they give it is with giant floppying bridles. I get bridle tangles all the time because some of the places I launch are sketch and the bridle will catch on the launch, boom the bridle wraps around the tip and you have to throw the QR.

2) less responsive. I don't care how you make the bridle, the tension of the line has to go up through the pulley and then around the other side, so you get a bit of delay. Normal riding it's not a problem, but when you kite in gusty conditions you feel it hit so you sheet out, but there's this delay and you get yanked until the kite sheets. That's one reason the rebel is so nice no bridle well actually the bridle is part of the 5th line, but it is very responsive to gusts. The depower on a really long bridle with pulleys is useless in gusty conditions! Some kites with pulleys have shorter bridles which makes the kite handle a lot better, all they need to do is take one more step and dump the pulleys.

I understand why cabrinha loves pulleys it's because they know it is much easier to reride when your bar only shoots up one meter instead of ten meters. So they build all their kites to use the pulleys and they aren't interested in quitting the pulleys any time soon because they are so invested with this particular safety system. For other kites there's no reason they can't get rid of the pulleys entirely.

If they can just shorten the bridles enough so you never get a wingtip wrap and the kite is still responsive in gusts, I would be fine with that (the hadlow pro has the shortest bridle ever and a pulley but I like the pulley on this kite). The problem of course is once you do this, you can't use an IDS system because with such a short bridle the kite won't lay on its back when you pull the mini-5th QR.

So we still have these annoying long bridles and pulleys.

Pulleys are also a good way to "fix" a kite if you don't design it exactly right, it will balance itself in the air properly with the pulley as the bridle slides around. I don't think cabrinha ever does that but I suspect that's the reason bridles are on some other kites. With a fixed bridle you have to get it exactly right so it takes more effort from the design team.


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 Post subject: Re: Mutiny removes pulleys from their kites :-)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:10 pm 
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edt wrote:

Pulleys are also a good way to "fix" a kite if you don't design it exactly right, it will balance itself in the air properly with the pulley as the bridle slides around. I don't think cabrinha ever does that but I suspect that's the reason bridles are on some other kites. With a fixed bridle you have to get it exactly right so it takes more effort from the design team.



I suppose you could look at it that way but its a bit narrow. Kinda like saying flex in a board is a way to "fix" its less than perfect rocker line.

Pulleys in bridles are a way to open up the range parameters for the kite to remain stable at end ranges and allow it to balance load on the various tow points. With a fixed bridle your obviously going to get uneven loading of tow points at different angles of attack. Sure you can make a kite work like that, but you can also go ride a McDonalds tray.

PS. as mentioned it also facilitates a really great way to safety a kite with a mini 5th. Super handy compared to single front line flag.


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 Post subject: Re: Mutiny removes pulleys from their kites :-)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:16 pm 
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Starsky wrote:
Pulleys in bridles are a way to open up the range parameters for the kite to remain stable at end ranges and allow it to balance load on the various tow points. With a fixed bridle your obviously going to get uneven loading of tow points at different angles of attack. Sure you can make a kite work like that, but you can also go ride a McDonalds tray.
.


exactly right. this is why it is difficult to design. Ozone catalyst is not a kitchen tray, it's an amazing kite, as the load moves over the various bridle attachments the kite always remains well behaved and responsive.


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 Post subject: Re: Mutiny removes pulleys from their kites :-)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:15 pm 
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DirkGently wrote:
C kite with a bridle involving pulleys isn't a true C kite.
Or, pray tell, which bridled "C kites" did you try?
We've had this "true or pure C kite" discussion for years now, so I won't argue for too long about it.
"Pure C kites" don't have bridles ..or five lines ..or pulleys ..or non square tips...which leaves only the Fuel.
All the five line C kites are using the fifth line to solve their problem, a fifth line is a bridle, especially when it is split into two or three attachment points.
Bridled C kites appeal to a larger audience because they have that larger range and relaunch easier/faster/better and the pulley does extend the range.
Most kites have very short bridles in the last 3 or 4 years and do not have wingtip wrap issues.
The kites I flew were an Ozone C4 11M and a Blade Prime 11M, I own one and a buddy owns the other.
My friend prefers the C4 and I the Prime, so personal taste is always a factor.
The C4 does turn a little faster but to no real advantage in my hands, the Prime turns plenty fast.
I like the more powerful Prime canopy for bottom end and the pulley allows for more top end depower.
Both felt nice and direct, no less direct than a Rebel for sure.
The Rebel feels like an SLE kite, and that is a shape thing, the "non bridled" line connections do not make it feel more direct, I own the 8M 2011.
I think C kites feel the way they do because of their canopy shape, as opposed to the SLE/delta/bow shapes, I don't think it's a bridle thing I think it is a shape thing.
I prefer a bridle and four lines, which knocks out the five line C's.
Still can't fall in love with a five line kite, I'm trying but it's not happening.
Anybody want a good deal on a 2011 Rebel 8m? :)
Anyway, glad to hear that Mutiny is thriving, I've heard their kites are very, very good.


Last edited by Oldnbroken on Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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