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 Post subject: Re: Review of sub 5m2 kites
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:46 am 
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Peter_Frank wrote:
Exactly - thats the problem....

If you got a kite with great low end it CAN NOT have lots of depower :(

This is mutually exclusive unfortunately, no matter what PR tells us :x

:roll: Peter


This is not entirely true. For example I use my 9m Bandit6 from 16K and had a blast with it and with a TT (Xenon LaLuz) at 35K.
Fone makes prototypes for each size, including the 5m. I heard an interview with Raphael Sales two years ago and he said they made over 50 prototypes for the 9m only :o and that the minimum of prototypes they made for a certain size was 16. I guess that's how many proto's you make when you concentrate in one model...


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 Post subject: Re: Review of sub 5m2 kites
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:26 am 
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Well, I think it is very true, you can not have great low end and lots of depower at the same time.
I can explain this, but will not write such a long post now :wink:

But I believe you were also answering my other post, where I said that some down and upscale the kites ?

Of course many (most ?), especially when focusing on a few series or only one, makes individual kites for the different sizes :thumb:

BUT, it still leaves them in a dilemma, because as said before - most sales when dealing with small kites are for lighter persons or TT riders, and they have very different requirements compaired to many wave riders IMO.

Which means they have to focus on the majority of the sales, of course - thus very few small, or no small kites are made with a more flat profile.

Also, all small kites are typically very on/off because of their sheer lack of size and the wind they are used in - which furthermore leads to brands choosing to have some depth in the profile, which leads to a more easy general good feel, but NO depower at all when flown fast and deep :o

So I understand why this profile (often similar or the same as the bigger ones) is chosen for the smallest kites, I just say I dont like it at all for waveriding - and have a hard time finding small kites that got the feature many waveriders like :roll:

:D Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Review of sub 5m2 kites
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Even though it *is* 5m, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Ocean Rodeo Storm one of the few purpose-built small kites. Unfortunately, I can't find anything specifically about how it drifts, but the people on the OR forum seem pretty stoked about it--as one might expect.

There was a thread on this forum too. Maybe get in touch with the OR guys and ask?


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 Post subject: Re: Review of sub 5m2 kites
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Thanks for all the feedback guys. I totally agree with you Peter that it gets difficult to go down the line when really high winds as it is very hard to yank the kite around low without picking up to much speed down the face. With x-off conditions I guess it would not be such an issue but here on GC the wind is generally side to side-on.

I have had the small Wainman Bunny (5m2) which I totally hated as it always pulled to much, great low end though but that's not such a necessity when 40 knots. The Nomads were quite nice, my 5,5m2 I sailed until it died.
Fairly pleased with my current Fuse setup but the 5m2 has a lot of power and really is bigger than it needs to be above 35 knots (and I am 189cm/85kg).

At the moment I have tracked down a 3,5m2 Takoon Kahuna that I will try out. Hopefully it will do the trick. Does anyone by the way know if I can fly this straight off a North 4 line bar ?


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 Post subject: Re: Review of sub 5m2 kites
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:23 pm 
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it's funny but i feel almost the opposite of what Peter_Frank and you guys are saying. I ride my slingshot rev 5m in Guincho a lot between july and august in strong dense winds (35 to 50 knots) and i love the feeling of the kite and how easy it is to surf with it, especially with short lines. I love how fast the kite flies, but most of all i love how it drifts way better than any of my other bigger kites and how i rarely feel overpowered.

And most of the guys i ride with in the same conditions also have a blast with their 5m kites and share the same feeling as me. I'm talking guys with ions, rebels, waroos, parks or bunnies (although the bunny is probably the gruntiest of any of these). Never really found anyone complaining about their 5m not having enough depower. I'm sure guincho in july is nothing compared to riding in the Danish winter, but i'd say our 40 knots days are pretty gusty, sometimes with more than 20 knots variation between lulls and gusts.

Myself i usually quit when the average wind gets over 40 knots because the waves are usually all blown out by then and i'm a father of 2, but i actually have had more scares with 7m kites than with my 5m.


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 Post subject: Re: Review of sub 5m2 kites
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:32 am 
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I ride at Guincho too, but I agree with Peter, on thouse heavy days my 5m (Wainman) is too gruntie.


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 Post subject: Re: Review of sub 5m2 kites
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:14 am 
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silversurfer_no wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I totally agree with you Peter that it gets difficult to go down the line when really high winds as it is very hard to yank the kite around low without picking up to much speed down the face. With x-off conditions I guess it would not be such an issue but here on GC the wind is generally side to side-on.

I have had the small Wainman Bunny (5m2) which I totally hated as it always pulled to much, great low end though but that's not such a necessity when 40 knots. The Nomads were quite nice, my 5,5m2 I sailed until it died.
Fairly pleased with my current Fuse setup but the 5m2 has a lot of power and really is bigger than it needs to be above 35 knots (and I am 189cm/85kg).

At the moment I have tracked down a 3,5m2 Takoon Kahuna that I will try out. Hopefully it will do the trick. Does anyone by the way know if I can fly this straight off a North 4 line bar ?

Several guys I know were very happy with the old Kahoona. F one has a new kite, the trust, it is available in 4m...


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 Post subject: Re: Review of sub 5m2 kites
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Of course - if you've only been used to 4-5m2 kites with a lot of grunt (camber and to some extent low AR), you will adapt and ride with your kite higher, or on shorter lines - which can compensate for this, IMO, bad behaviour.

But otherwise, it is very evident that they will pull you "out of line" when flown deep, when you go vertical on the waveface (up or down) :o

I have never seen a 4-5m2 kite that does not "appear" to drift well, as in these winds it is not the kite that drifts well.
Simply because you can not (extremely difficult) outrun the wind speed, so you never get slack lines except in lulls, thus no true "drift", so all really small kites seem at first glance to drift really well usually :naughty:
Even though they might not - but you will never find out, as not used in light winds where you outrun the wind often....

So if used to these sizes or adapting a different style and/or lines, one can get away with it, true :thumb:

But for me it is a PITA :x that you have to change style so violently when you go from say a 7 to a 5m2 with normal linelengths (or from a 6 to a 4m2), and when you change between these two during a day (which we do really often here, as wind is around these "sizes" a lot), it gets even worse.

Some, riding with clean side or sideoffshore winds, keeping the kite parked or high, or with really short lines, wont notice.
But everybody else got the same problem with too grunty 4-5m2 kites, which I find most kites are...

Most have never tried a kite with huge depower (lower camber) in these sizes, so they dont know what they are missing :roll:

That could be another reason why there are so many different opinions on this, besides personal taste of course.

On twintips it is just opposite - we mostly want good grunt in these smallest kites, as the kite will then "behave" easier, and not be as on/off and erratic as a more low cambered kite might be :naughty:

:D Peter


PS: It is NOT a question about having a kite that is too big....
As the kites we use are perfectly powered when going straight and upwind, not too much nor too little - as we choose the size after this, solely.
But when you ride up and down the wave, and you fly the kite all the way down low in the powerzone - they pull way too much (and gets even worse with lower AR although easier to fly) and will hinder any free active waveriding :o
Whereas medium sized kites around 7m2 (for the average rider) dont have this tendency at all, because of the lower wind speed, and fits mostly bullseye for many riders :naughty:


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 Post subject: Re: Review of sub 5m2 kites
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:25 am 
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Interesting discussion, I truly hope that the industry responds with more R&D now that surfing with kites is getting more and more popular. Nothing beats 35-40 knots, good surf and a small kite..
On the other hand, I am quite content with the performance of my 2011 F-one Volt 5m. I have no problems depowering enough to have full freedom on the wave. But maybe I don't know what I'm missing?


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 Post subject: Re: Review of sub 5m2 kites
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:48 am 
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Ocean Rodeo has the Storm...


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