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Auto Zenith ???

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Starsky
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Re: Auto Zenith ???

Postby Starsky » Wed May 15, 2013 8:09 pm

bnthere wrote:troll.


above your head is undoubtedly the worst/least safe place you can put your kite. don't be stupid.


(although the design characteristics question is interesting i guess.)


you gotta think outside the box a little. Arcs have been doing it for years and years. To be safe you also need it to remain stable as all fuck once its up there and for it to have virtually no power. Arcs do all of that pretty well despite the story above. I parked one on the end of a dock and left it up there, had lunch, then grabbed it and hit the water again. In winter you can tie em off on an ice screw and have a beer and it will wait for you like a horse at a post. Not safe or smart or whatever, but in consistent wind a fully developed feature of other kite designs. On even a remotely appropriate size arc, they just sit up there and wait. I've more than a couple years on both types and tho I no longer fly arcs, the feature could have huge merit for wave purists as your kite is a thousand times less likely to ever get washed. That kite could be your lifeline in the event you really get tumbled and if it stays flying Id say your less likely to see tangles.

Ive had 5 line C kites that when you go to safety would fly super stable from the 5th. Super handy on sketchy exits, and any kind of mud/weeds/rocks etc.

An auto zenith 4 line kite that will safety straight up is really what you will eventually get when designers try for ever more stable wave kites. What could be more stable than a kite that corrects to the middle? I eventually really didn't like having a kite pull up while riding. It requires you fly it from the bottom hand, instead of LEI's than tend down, you have always been able to fly well with a hand on the top side of the bar. If the trait were done right there would be little to no drift while riding and actively flying the kite, but it would safety like my old 5 liners.

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Re: Auto Zenith ???

Postby snobdr » Thu May 16, 2013 12:28 am

The key words from above, in consistent wind. I snowkiter for a few days with an arc. One day was very shifty, gusty, and i wiped out. This great auto zenith feature drug me around the field for a good 3-4 minutes. I laughed the whole time telling myself how great auto zenith is.
No matter how muh depower you have when the kite is at 12 there is the possibility to be lofted. Leave autozenith to the single line kites.

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Re: Auto Zenith ???

Postby nherbold » Thu May 16, 2013 12:35 am

This great auto zenith feature drug me around the field for a good 3-4 minutes. I laughed the whole time telling myself how great auto zenith is.


A man with a sense of humor.... :thumb:

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Re: Auto Zenith ???

Postby Starsky » Thu May 16, 2013 12:49 am

Dude! If the wind is squirly enough to drag you around by a safetied arc its squirly enough to give you trouble with any kite. I'm not saying we should all fly arcs. I haven't had one for something like 6 years! I think your having trouble seeing past whats already out there. My 5 line c kites could never ever loft you while flying from the 5th. To be viable its that degree of depower I'm talking about. Might not even be auto zenith while riding as much as while safetied.

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Re: Auto Zenith ???

Postby TurcoLoco » Thu May 16, 2013 1:36 am

The real theoretical question is why can't an LEI autozenith?
Or at least fall very slowly from the sky with zero input, instead of starting slow and eventually dive...

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Re: Auto Zenith ???

Postby snobdr » Thu May 16, 2013 3:08 am

Because LEIs are leading edge heavy.

If i were flying my lei that day when i wiped out the kite would have droped and that would have been the end of it. Not dragging around for a few minutes.

Remember that arc has to get to zenith first. You bail as the kite is in the meat of the power zone or just entering it, that kite can drag you a long way before it ever gets to 12.

That reminds me, i saw a vid once of a landboarding guy who wiped out with an arc and it drug him 15-20 meters before he finally stopped. I asked about it and was told its because he rides "overpowered" and thats why it drug him.

You have more of a chance of bad things happening when the kite stays in the air.

One good thing, after you drug into something and knocked out youll be easy to find. Just look for the kite flying directly over you.

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Re: Auto Zenith ???

Postby Starsky » Fri May 17, 2013 12:47 am

snobdr wrote:
You have more of a chance of bad things happening when the kite stays in the air.



Id say that's debatable. Plenty of scenarios where one is safer than the other and vice versa. Getting caught up in lines or having them come into contact with hazards is never great and 99% of the time a kite that waits calmly in the air for you is a major bonus. Not saying an arc cant kill you, but it no more likely than with any other kite.

You can talk up the dangers of an autozenithing arc and mention a couple incidents and not many around here would be the wiser. The real world reality is that sheeted out on a decent throw bar and autozenithed, arcs are almost exceedingly safe. Your couple of days experience notwithstanding. Re: You're getting dragged for 3-4 min..... like any other kite you probably shoulda pulled the safety.

The concept is not as bunk, or dangerous as you seem to want it to be.

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Re: Auto Zenith ???

Postby plummet » Fri May 17, 2013 4:28 am

Starsky wrote:
snobdr wrote:
You have more of a chance of bad things happening when the kite stays in the air.



Id say that's debatable. Plenty of scenarios where one is safer than the other and vice versa. Getting caught up in lines or having them come into contact with hazards is never great and 99% of the time a kite that waits calmly in the air for you is a major bonus. Not saying an arc cant kill you, but it no more likely than with any other kite.

You can talk up the dangers of an autozenithing arc and mention a couple incidents and not many around here would be the wiser. The real world reality is that sheeted out on a decent throw bar and autozenithed, arcs are almost exceedingly safe. Your couple of days experience notwithstanding. Re: You're getting dragged for 3-4 min..... like any other kite you probably shoulda pulled the safety.

The concept is not as bunk, or dangerous as you seem to want it to be.


I have to agree. As a landkiter aswell a foil is typcially safer than a lei because it stays in the air longer. With my landboarding I kite right next to and jump over the drift wood on the beach. In my 8 years of kiting i have only been dragged through the driftwood once. The was on a lie. I crashed at high speed did a few 360's on the ground on my back i came to a stop just in time to see my kite blasting straight through the power zone. off I go smashing straight through the drift wood.

The exact same accident on a speed 3 see the kite just stop and float at the edge the window until up ready to get up and dust myself off. no dragging.

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Re: Auto Zenith ???

Postby voodoospirit » Fri May 17, 2013 6:45 pm

i dont ride arcs anymore but the autozenith helped me in many ways, including helping peeps in troubles.
the gusty winds are tricky because if u have an aggressive arc, it will move around the zenith, and might pull u until it stabilize again..in those winds, i control the arc like a LEI, 11h with my hands on the bar.
i saw a bunch of LEI riders getting pulled over 100m because their kite were at the edge of the window, wind shifted, kite was , then , in the full window and there you go.... or the delta kite trying to relauch on their own, tumbling in the full window...and bannnnzaiiiii.

autozenith has its avantages and drawbacks, i dont try to rely on it in gusty/shifty winds, i m cautious in my high wind range despite PL kites have very good high range.

other than that...regular wind or more or less regular, autozenith can help a lot...and a dry kite is easier to fly than a wet one

i have to point out that many arc riders were using custom bar with short depower rope and with a long depower or a PL bar, u get a good gain in depower.
i saw the difference betwwen my old venom² bar then the synergy i had ( i switched the bar for testing).

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Re: Auto Zenith ???

Postby CaptainArgh » Fri May 17, 2013 7:28 pm

Starsky wrote:you gotta think outside the box a little. Arcs have been doing it for years and years. To be safe you also need it to remain stable as all fuck once its up there and for it to have virtually no power. Arcs do all of that pretty well despite the story above. I parked one on the end of a dock and left it up there, had lunch, then grabbed it and hit the water again. In winter you can tie em off on an ice screw and have a beer and it will wait for you like a horse at a post. Not safe or smart or whatever, but in consistent wind a fully developed feature of other kite designs. On even a remotely appropriate size arc, they just sit up there and wait. I've more than a couple years on both types and tho I no longer fly arcs, the feature could have huge merit for wave purists as your kite is a thousand times less likely to ever get washed. That kite could be your lifeline in the event you really get tumbled and if it stays flying Id say your less likely to see tangles.

Ive had 5 line C kites that when you go to safety would fly super stable from the 5th. Super handy on sketchy exits, and any kind of mud/weeds/rocks etc.

An auto zenith 4 line kite that will safety straight up is really what you will eventually get when designers try for ever more stable wave kites. What could be more stable than a kite that corrects to the middle? I eventually really didn't like having a kite pull up while riding. It requires you fly it from the bottom hand, instead of LEI's than tend down, you have always been able to fly well with a hand on the top side of the bar. If the trait were done right there would be little to no drift while riding and actively flying the kite, but it would safety like my old 5 liners.

interesting post, thanks.
i always thought it was a neat feature, and you informatively described why you loved it and why you no longer fly it. :thumb:


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