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 Post subject: Re: 2010 11.5 Kahoona High-end freakout!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:50 pm 
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Location: Ridgway
Thanks for the feedback fellas. Note that the 30 knot gusts might only be a total of a minute or two during an afternoon of kiting. Most of the time it's 15-20 knots. Lulls to 10 knots. I feel like I'm on the right size kite most of the time (even under-powered a lot). But 10 seconds of a gust too big that causes the LE to in-flip can turn into a line-wrapping debacle...
I love this kite, especially for snowkiting up high in lots of terrain with up-slope winds. I love how it'll stay in the sky through the lulls, turn quickly to get me through weird snow features, and won't overfly and hindenburg. What is a good 12m-ish replacement?


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 Post subject: Re: 2010 11.5 Kahoona High-end freakout!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:14 pm 
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matthepp wrote:
Hey guys,
My trusty 2010 11.5m Kahoona is starting to perform badly when over-powered in big gusts. I (200 lbs, intermediate kiter) ride in variable mountain wind so I love to hang on to my bigger kite to survive the lulls. Starting this past winter, and getting worse every session, the Kahoona 'freaks out' while depowered surviving the biggest gusts. In the center of the kite, the canopy just behind the LE luffs a LOT, and the LE tries to fold in. I had the kite invert twice, so I try to keep some amount of rear line pressure to prevent excessive luffing and just survive the gust. I make sure inflation is up to spec to avoid the under-inflation cause. I feel like this didn't happen last year in similar wind?? So my question to you experts is: Is this an inherent part of the v2 Kahoona design, is the canopy and/or bridle stretched, or something else I've not considered? Anything you'd recommend to give it a tune-up? I'm an engineer/tinkerer sort...
Thanks. I'm too heavy to make my 9m Waroo work in these winds. (That kite will behave in any wind, no issues!)
Matt



sorry buddy, you didnt know that about this kite before you got it huh. for those that dont know: this is the definition of STABILITY. a term i hear thrown around a lot, with a lot of misuse and ambiguity: this is (part of) what it actually is, and this an example of a kite design that doesnt have a lot of it.

it is the kind of thing that can get worse over time and use, for whatever reason (stretching or softening, or whatever) it is also the kind of thing that will always be blamed on pressure, which is not the actual cause, this will happen to your kite regardless of how hard you pump it (as you have probably discovered)

STABILITY is always a more important issue for heavier riders, and rider that otherwise put their kites through high load situations (bigger kites in higher winds, etc)

another stab at a terminology thread ..... could be trouble


and your exactly right about how it isnt necessarily a problem most of the time. however, even tho it might not happen a lot, it can happen, and therefore could happen, and therefore could happen at a really bad time (far from shore, downwind obstacles, whatever). It may be possible that any kite can be deformed in the right situation, but it is definitely true that some will do it way easier than others, and some will in worse ways than others. there are many known models with stability issues of more or less degrees. it is unfortunate that it is not talked about properly in things like kite reviews and magazines. everyone is like: "it feels super stable" but they either have no idea if it really is, or are just saying that just because. they often are referring to how "steady" or "consistent" the kite feels in the air ("its super stable, it just sits at 12 oclock", or "its really stable flying straight across the wind, no pulling upwards or downward or no bar wobble", or something else like that, which isnt really talking about a kites STABILITY)

stability is the kites ability to hold its shape, and perform consistently. especially in high load situations. deformation of LE, wingtip buckling, backwinding of the canopy and flexing the LE, are all examples of instability issues. (twisting and bowtying, i know a lot of people have experienced that) popping a kite inside out while cutting it through the powerzone and high depowering might also be, im not sure about that one, but i throw it in anyway.


good post. get a more hardcore kite is your only solution, leave the kahoona for the lawn mowers and the lighter riders


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 Post subject: Re: 2010 11.5 Kahoona High-end freakout!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:10 pm 
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bnthere wrote:
sorry buddy, you didnt know that about this kite before you got it huh. for those that dont know: this is the definition of STABILITY. a term i hear thrown around a lot, with a lot of misuse and ambiguity: this is (part of) what it actually is, and this an example of a kite design that doesnt have a lot of it.


I disagree. I think of stability as the ability of the kite to stay in the air no matter how you mess up. Doesn't overfly, doesn't hindenburg even in lulls or when you mess up a jump. Of course this is all in the defined wind range. This is where the Kahoona excels. User friendly maybe is a better term? Wide wind range is not the Kahoonas strong point, especially earlier models.

If a kite with a stated wind range of 11-23 knots gets squirrely at 30 knots, I wouldn't define that as a kite with poor stability. That's more of a limited range issue.

As far as what to get next, I think the 2011+ kahoonas would be better for you than the 2010, but you might want to go up a size if you want the same range as the 2010 11.5m. I switched to Rebels which have a wider wind range than the kahoonas and jump a bit higher, but they aren't as stable in the lulls as the kahoona.


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 Post subject: Re: 2010 11.5 Kahoona High-end freakout!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:34 pm 
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hopefully your next kite will have strut where it matters most - in the middle of the canopy. majority of the kites lift is created in the middle section of the kite. if there are no struts you have fluttering and stretching


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 Post subject: Re: 2010 11.5 Kahoona High-end freakout!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:47 pm 
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thats a good point you bring up davesails, but your definition of stability (the kite not overflying the edge of the wind when above your head, and then dipping the LE and falling (hindenburging), although it is the kind of thing people do lump into the "stability" category, shouldnt be called that. instead, it can just be stated that a kite either does that easily (which sucks) or it doesnt.

Stability is and should be, what i am describing it as. a kites ability to maintain its shape and flying characteristics (especially under high load / stress situations, because they all do it in low / regular load situations or they would never get on the market)

this is the kind of powder keg any terminology thread or discussion is going to be, so everybody be cool. i am open to suggestions and new info, im not trying to be a dick. but you may have noticed i have some well defined positions about how things are in kiting, and i am posting a lot these days. it is for a reason, and i am probably going to continue, unless people don't appreciate it, in which case i will stop, but this is for a lot of y'alls own good (you dont know who you are, but other people on here do).

there is a big gap in this sport between the people that actually know what is going on, and the people that think they do (or are trying to figure it out) and i decided to be committed to helping close that gap, and hopefully people on this forum appreciate it. we will see if its worth it, so far so good i think. i also might as well just say that although i know a lot about what im talking about, i dont know everything about everything, but im not going to make anything up, or go out on a limb about anything i am not sure about, if i say something that i am not 100% on i will try and always acknowledge it at the time. peace. lets keep going!


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 Post subject: Re: 2010 11.5 Kahoona High-end freakout!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:40 pm 
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bnthere wrote:
"stability" category, shouldnt be called that. instead, it can just be stated that a kite either does that easily (which sucks) or it doesnt.


I think we need a new word then for the two different characteristics referred to as stability. If we only use your definition, I'd only be able to say "the kahoona is good because it really does not suck".

This is further confused by the term SUKing (kiting with a SUP). :D

But I definitely get what you're saying, two different characteristics both called stability is confusing.


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 Post subject: Re: 2010 11.5 Kahoona High-end freakout!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:11 pm 
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Agreed guys, both are different qualities of stability. The rebel hold its shape better at its higher end ( well much better) and under load, but the kahoona is stupidly stable over head ( a no brainer delta kite) great for obvious grunty low end and simple relaunch.

Interesting ....


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 Post subject: Re: 2010 11.5 Kahoona High-end freakout!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:44 am 
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haha, suking that is funny. i think that is true about the rebel, i am pretty sure that shape is really solid. i dont have a ton of experience on them but i havent come across deformation issues under high load on them at all, in any sizes, and dont know of anyone that has. but i dont know about that for sure. it is easier to point out the kites that do have that kind of problem. (which also isnt necessarily a "problem" for everyone, like lighter riders, for example)


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 Post subject: Re: 2010 11.5 Kahoona High-end freakout!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:12 am 
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I have and that is a quality of the rebels I loved. Also I know heavy riders that swear by them for this reason and most other kites they can deform under load. Very solid canopy.


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 Post subject: Re: 2010 11.5 Kahoona High-end freakout!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:26 am 
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So why dont we use "structural stability" and "flying stabilty"


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