*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:20 am 
Offline
Rare Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:55 am
Posts: 11
I bought a new Gaastra 2004 ish kite (old stock ) on eBay, now I know why it was such a good deal :-?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KITEBOARDING-sn ... 43bd65c931

In my ignorance I didn't realize that these are C-kites and not really suitable for novices.

I've contacted Gaastra and am waiting to hear back from them.

It's well past the return date option, so I want to at least be able to use the bar and lines on my new Pansh Adam 3.5 and 4.5 m 4 line kites as trainers.

http://www.panshkite.com/index.php?gOo= ... oductname=

In the mean time I've already bought a Nasa star 5.5m and set up their conversion kit onto my Gaastra bar and removed the 4th safety line to do it.

Even then it was far from obvious (to me) how to set up the lines and leash... for a four line kite. So now I'm hoping a Gaastra or any 4 line bar set up veteran can help me set the bar and safety system properly.

Thanks in advance,
Tim


{ SHARE_ON_FACEBOOK } { SHARE_ON_TWITTER } { SHARE_ON_ORKUT } { SHARE_ON_DIGG } { SHARE_ON_MYSPACE } { SHARE_ON_DELICIOUS }
Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:44 pm 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:51 pm
Posts: 118
Location: Toronto, ON
I have a 2004 Gaastra Force 14m I recently converted to 5 lines. Good luck getting any response from Gaastra about an ancient kite and bar.

If memory serves, on the Gaastra bar to get the front lines even, one line is attached with a larks head to the knot in the pigtail at the end of the trimming strap; and the other is attached with a larks head to the triangular lock ring which jams up against the steel ring opposite the knot:

Image

You could detach the leash from the triangular lock ring because it is a flimsy piece of crap and you don't want to flag to a front line on a foil anyway. You can simply leash yourself to one of the steering line leaders. You could borrow the steel ring from the middle of the left front line, or a bit of 2-3mm cord in a prussik knot for this purpose. Attaching the leash here will prevent you from spinning the bar after looping the kite without getting the leash wrapped around the chicken loop.

Alternatively, you can get another steel ring to make a mini-5th line system which will flag the kite on to both rear lines. This would be the most elegant solution as you could have it pass through the bar. You could do this with one rear line too, but it wouldn't be as cool. ;) If you're going to attach the rings to the steering lines themselves instead of the leaders, use some dacron tape as ad-hoc sleeving.

The Adam(s) are fixed-bridle kites, so they may behave a bit funny on a bar. Though, I've heard from a couple guys that they fly on a bar just fine. YMMV, I guess.

Ancient kites, NPWs, and stuff from Pansh is all about messing around until it works. Make it up as you go along, but think things through with an eye towards safety and you'll be fine--and you'll learn a bunch in the process.

Best of luck!


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:33 am 
Offline
Rare Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:55 am
Posts: 11
Thanks a bunch jbcd,

The photo looks almost identical ( no steering line adjustment straps on mine ) and it's mainly what I needed. The only thing is your jargon is above my head :-?

I have a basic grasp, but as my kitesurfing teacher is Japanese and I don't speak it, language during my lessons has been minimal, and mostly Japanese.

Is it possible for you to label the photo ( ideal ) or otherwise use pics or a link so I can understand what you've said.

I'm not clueless, nor am I conversant with the jargon enough to follow you well.

I also need to know / see the kite end connections to the kite as Pansh probably assumes you'll use their bars, and I see online that there are variations. I'm not sure which to use.

It makes sense to flag out on a trailing edge corner of a foil, but I'm not sure how to set that up, especially what needs to connect to where on the photo below.

Yes, I'm that new. Thanks jbdc ( a fellow Canadian ) for your help.

Tim


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:41 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:29 pm
Posts: 245
Location: south east pa PKF SUX!!!
Those pansh kites are fixed bridle and your bar if for a depower kite. Wont work unless u mod the bar.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:14 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Posts: 2253
Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
gaastra is a plain C kite you can use it with a modern bar, perhaps a 5 line system or a 4 line system with single line flagging pretty old tho 2004 is a ancient history in terms of kites. I don't trust the older control bars, most aren't real reliable. The nasa kites pull pretty hard downwind it's pretty ancient designed in 1948 for use as a parachute, I would just resell it if I had that kite. Pansh adam are two line kites right? That seems like a decent trainer, but I thought they were two line kites. You could take the gaastra bar, cut off everything except for the bar and 2 lines and fly the pansh adams on it. Then after flying your trainers gettting some lessons you can buy a decent kite with a control bar, fly that and then some day go back to the gaastra. trainers dont pull real hard, you dont necessarily need to flag it out, just fly it unhooked and drop the bar if you get into trouble. buy or make some pigtails if the lines need to be loops instead of knots or whatever.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:36 am 
Offline
Rare Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:55 am
Posts: 11
snobdr wrote:
Those pansh kites are fixed bridle and your bar if for a depower kite. Wont work unless u mod the bar.


Thanks snobdr,

Ok so how would I need to mod it, pics are good :-)

Tim


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:56 am 
Offline
Rare Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:55 am
Posts: 11
Thanks for the ideas edt,

The Pansh Adam is actually a 4 line kite. I got one 4.5 m and one 3.5 m for the price of the 4.5m (promotion campaign).

I'll be keeping the Nasa kite as I have the setup to use it in "street mode" which allows you to fly it from the bridle on a bar where other kiting would be impossible, pretty cool for boarding. Also at 5.5m it can generate massive pull when other kites are struggling to get airborn, it's still a cool trainer / toy.

From my experience with the Nasa star, I want to treat the Adam with the respect of a full on power kite, and later when I have it all working I want to stack the 3.5 and 4.5 together which should give me small power kite levels of power.

I've been going over the necessary mods in my head to make that happen, and I think it's doable, so I want the bar set up or modded to have standard safety features including flag out.

I'm not there yet, but with jbdc's photo and everyone's feedback I'm almost ready to design, mod and set up something that'll work.

Please keep the ideas coming.

Tim

P.S. I'll post any successes here, especially if I get the stack working. I can't imaging how else I'd get a brand new 8 m kite for $172 U.S. :D


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:57 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Posts: 2253
Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
Well if it's a 4 line, then you could just buy a new bar use it on the gaastra and adams. I can tell you are on a budget I was looking for a new control bar myself the other day you can get a naish 2012 new but last year's model control bar for only $350 at plenty of dealers that's not too bad. I think you can tell what I think of trying to use one of those 2004 control bars, I don't trust their quick releases. I don't recommend stacking unless it is a peter lynn or flexifoil, the kites fight each other, and tug directly downwind, it is not like adding them together, it's like you are asking cats to pull a sled, they are not going in the same direction most of the time.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:42 pm 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:51 pm
Posts: 118
Location: Toronto, ON
Sorry about the jargon; I was just trying to convey the essentials as quickly as possible. Time to bust out the MSPAINT skills, I guess! ;)

Are you clear on re-attaching the both front/center lines? They go like this:

Attachment:
Gaastra Bar Front Lines.jpg
Gaastra Bar Front Lines.jpg [ 12.25 KIB | Viewed 1053 times ]


The triangular lock ring is held against the round steel ring by the velcro retainer (as indicated by the little black arrow). When attached to a foil and with the leash attached on that line, pulling the red safety tab near the chicken loop will probably make the kite helicopter in place (not good). The simplest solution is to leash to an outside line:

Attachment:
Gaastra Bar Outside Leash.jpg
Gaastra Bar Outside Leash.jpg [ 13.76 KIB | Viewed 1053 times ]


There's a prusik knot on the left leader line which the leash is attached to:

Image

A prusik won't work at all on the flying lines. A larks head around a steel ring might be less prone to slippage than a prusik knot:

Image

If you were to use a steel ring on the flying lines, you'd need to protect it with sleeving. You should find a steel ring and sleeving attached several metres up the left centre flying line. In the standard configuration, it's there to prevent the bar from riding all the way up the line when the safety is pulled. You can borrow this ring for your outside line leash attachment, but the sleeving might be difficult/impossible to remove from the centre line to place on the outside line; which is why I suggested Dacron tape around the line might work as makeshift sleeving.

You can't spin the bar in this configuration because the leash gets wrapped around the chicken loop. If you want to be able to spin the bar, the safety line must pass through the bar:

Attachment:
Gaastra Bar Single Pass-Through.jpg
Gaastra Bar Single Pass-Through.jpg [ 12.81 KIB | Viewed 1053 times ]


But if you're going to go to all that trouble, you might as well do it right, and flag to both steering lines:

Attachment:
Gaastra Bar Mini-5th.jpg
Gaastra Bar Mini-5th.jpg [ 13.43 KIB | Viewed 1053 times ]


I hope that clears things up for you.

Despite snobdr's misgivings, I've heard the Adam works alright on a regular bar; I guess they like to be flown off the brakes. So long as you don't try to muscle the kite and yank on the bar, it should be fine. The bar mod snobdr is talking about would be to make something like an Ozone Turbo Bar. You can see one in the linked video from my initial post. It's a bar with a fancy pulley system to allow fixed bridle kites to be flown on a bar without the bad behaviour of the standard bar exhibited in the video. It's almost assuredly not worth the effort given that we have it on fairly good authority that the Adam flies well enough on a standard bar. When you go to the beach, bring some 3mm cord (with a core and a braided outer--something like this) to make pig tails, you might need it to add some length to the front or back lines greater than what's available in the trim strap.

You won't be able to stack the Adams. Stacks only work for kites with outside attachment points like Flexifoil Stackers, C-Kites, ARCs, and some hybrids (people have done it with the Best TS, I think). The bridles of the Adam are roughly centered in each half of the kite. Back in the day there were foils which had attachment points on the top side for stacking; I can't remember the brand or model though.

Regardless, once you get either of these kites in the air on a brisk day, you won't be thinking about stacking anyway. A fixed-bridle foil develops almost twice as much power as an inflatable for the same area of cloth; making your 4.5m pull about as hard as a 7 or 8m inflatable in the same amount of wind. Be careful!

P.S. See if you can find yourself a newer leash with clips on both ends (the end with the safety release goes closest to you). The Gaastra leash is crap, and is only really meant to work with the antiquated safety system. If you must use it, string some line through the webbing loop (the end furthest from the chrome Wichard release shackle) and tie it off to wherever you need to attach. Way more fussy than simply clipping in, no?

P.P.S We're also presuming you already have a harness. You need one to fly with a 4-line bar. Even if you were to get a new bar, you'd have to do something similar to what we're talking about here to make it flag the kite off one or both of the rear lines. Of course, if you're keen to get flying right away, you can skip all this mucking about and use a pair of handles--no harness required.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:25 pm 
Offline
Rare Poster

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:18 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Santa Cruz, CA. / Alameda, CA.
I updated my old gaastra bar so its safer, how about something like this to give you an idea on modifications? I ride caution kites, so my bar flags on both center lines, but you can easily adapt a change like this with your bar.

Attachment:
gaastra.png
gaastra.png [ 762.23 KIB | Viewed 1030 times ]


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], BiteMe, geopeck, Google [Bot], ShaveTheWhales and 26 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group