*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:20 pm 
Offline
Rare Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:55 am
Posts: 12
Thanks jbdc and reyrivera, you're awesome!!

The images really help, I'm very visual. I went out today and set it up at the river, no wind, but I was happy just to prepare, though flying would have been better.

I set the middle lines to the back lines of the kite, and the front to the outside of the bar as per a diagram I found online, it seems the opposite of what jbdc is saying.

So the rear brake lines are for steering? It makes sense to flag out both rear lines, but it seems ( in my amatuer mind ) like the front lines would be for steering, and the back would run up the center for flagout.

I'm not questioning the advice, just a little confused as I could imagine how steering could potentially happen from either front or rear.

So to be completely clear where do the lines from the front right and left of the kite go, along the outside or through the middle of the bar?

And lines connected to the rear left and right of the kite go where, along the outside or through the middle of the bar?

Thanks again,
Tim

P.S. I already have a seat harness, and will definitely set up the dual rear flag out.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:31 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Posts: 2273
Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
a kitesurfing kite is tuned so that the rear lines are steering lines, not brake lines, and the center or front lines are there just to transmit the pull of the kite to you. Pulling both lines on a kite is meant to power up the kite to full power. a paraglider by contrast uses the rear lines as brake lines and pulling them both slows the wing, and they are also used to turn the wing. a stunt kite typically uses hand rings, and not a bar, and the rear lines are for brakes only, and to turn to the kite you want to pull both the front and the back lines at the same time, you can't do this easily on a bar until it has all kinds of pulleys but it is simple to do with a hand ring, you just pull one hand back. There are trainers that work more like a regular kitesurfing kite where the rear lines are steering lines. these kite trainers are meant to be run from a bar and not hand rings. If I were you I would just get a modern kite bar and run all your stuff from it, your particular trainer is built to run from hand rings but from what the previous posters said it does seem to turn from the rear lines fine. For safety a modern bar will do 1 of either 3 things 1) fifth line, this goes thru the center of the bar and attaches to the middle of the kite, 2) flag out on a center line, this safety goes thru the bar and up to a single front or center line or 3) relies on the bridle to depower the kite -- this flagging system doesn't work on a C kite, it also has a Y where the two center lines come down to join. Stunt kites don't use any of those systems. They normally are built to flag out on a single outside line, where you let go of the hand rings, and there is a wrist leash that is connected to a single outside rear line or sometimes both rear lines -- no modern kitesurfing kite will flag out this way, so if you set up your bar to flag out this way you will want to undo it when you hook it up to a modern kite.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:46 pm 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:51 pm
Posts: 120
Location: Toronto, ON
ravel wrote:
Thanks jbdc and reyrivera, you're awesome!!

The images really help, I'm very visual. I went out today and set it up at the river, no wind, but I was happy just to prepare, though flying would have been better.

I set the middle lines to the back lines of the kite, and the front to the outside of the bar as per a diagram I found online, it seems the opposite of what jbdc is saying.


This diagram wouldn't happen to be for a 3-line kite or NPW would it? That would explain the confusion. I assure you that for a 4-line kite on a bar, the chicken loop/centre lines go to the front(s) and the bar ends go to the brakes/rears. Always.

ravel wrote:
So the rear brake lines are for steering? It makes sense to flag out both rear lines, but it seems ( in my amatuer mind ) like the front lines would be for steering, and the back would run up the center for flagout.

I'm not questioning the advice, just a little confused as I could imagine how steering could potentially happen from either front or rear.


Might you be carrying-over some ideas from stunt kites and 2 line foils? Those are steered by differentially loading each side of the wing. Presumably this changes the profile of the wing on the side which is getting pulled more, increasing it's drag. Which then allows the unloaded side to fly faster, turning the kite.

4-line fixed bridle foils are steered by a combination of the above, and the additional drag created by the brake on the same side which is being loaded (akin to ailerons or flaps on an airplane wing--simmer-down pilots! I know they're different, but they are both trailing-edge control surfaces). Though some can do it better than others, it is possible to steer a 4-line fixed-bridle foil using the brakes alone. This what you will be doing with your Adam.

Depower kites are steered by differentially changing the angle of attack (AoA) for each side of the kite. Pulling one of the rear lines increases the AoA and drag on that side of the kite. The more slippery, lower AoA side will fly faster and turn the kite.

They're all slightly different methods of achieving the same thing. The depower kite has the advantage of being able to change the AoA of the entire kite while it is up in the air; drastically changing the amount of lift the kite is generating. Whereas the AoA on fixed bridles is, well... fixed--it cannot be changed.

You'll be able to get a tiny bit more lift by pulling in the brakes on a 4-line fixed bridle kite, but it may be difficult to discern through the harness. And if you keep pulling, you'll quickly stall the kite. This is why I was noting you should use a light touch on the bar.

4-line fixed bridle foils are typically designed to be flown off handles; where you have only your wrist on the short end of a 30cm lever to provide input to the small area at the very trailing edge of the kite. By attaching the brakes to the bar, you're able to use your entire arm at a greater mechanical advantage for the same tiny control area. This makes it very easy to make the kite do weird things (like the spins in that bar comparison video I linked in my initial reply). Use your finger tips and try to keep your hands in the middle of the bar to prevent yourself from giving it too much muscle. The rear lines should be mostly slack when the kite is flying in a straight line.

Maybe a little less slack than this:



Not sure what that person is trying to accomplish there with all the yanking.

ravel wrote:
So to be completely clear where do the lines from the front right and left of the kite go, along the outside or through the middle of the bar?


The lines from the front right and front left of the kite will go to the middle, through the bar, to your chicken loop.

ravel wrote:
And lines connected to the rear left and right of the kite go where, along the outside or through the middle of the bar?


The lines from the rear left and the rear right of the kite will connect to the ends of the bar.

Also, reyrivera's frankenbar is pretty awesome. :)


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:38 am 
Offline
Rare Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:55 am
Posts: 12
Thanks again jbdc,

Yes, until now the only experience I had setting up mu own kites has been 2 line and Nasa Wing, so I assumed that the control surfaces were the same set up.

I have actually set and now flown my Adam once. It was clumsy and lacking the dual line flagging system with 2 rings, which I'm now setting up.

As you said it had a tendency to oversteer, rather I did, and it was actually doing bowtie waggling. The wind was pathetic, and I couldn't keep it flying but it did seem to automatically apex at the zenith when the wind picked up, followed by stalling, probably from a lack of wind.

Still I was thrilled just to see and experience it flying and that I could control it from the bar. It's definitely different from all the other kites I've flown, so I'm glad I decided to get the Adam to train with rather than jump to the Aurora which might well kill me if I'd started with it.

I can static and body drag with this one until I acquire the skill, then start looking at a bigger one, probably next summer.

Tim


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:09 pm 
Offline
Rare Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:55 am
Posts: 12
Hi,

I did some shopping online and found this bar.

http://www.powerkiteshop.com/accessorie ... rolbar.htm


I their information it says:

"The 4-Line Peter Lynn Power Kite Control Bar lets you fly your 4-Line Fixed Bridle Foil with ease. This bar design allows you to fly your kite with precise control and good kite response.

With the brake lines attached to the centre strap, you can easily adjust the power and turning speed of the kite.

This design of the bar works great with kites that fly well without the need of brake line steering such as the Peter Lynn Hornet, Pepper II and Peter Lynn Twister"

I called the shop and they assured me that it would work on the Adam no problem, and that the power lines, not the brake lines MUST be attached to the outside lines of the control bar, or it wouldn't be safe.

I'm mainly considering another bar because setting up the bar I have for the Pansh is undoing the NASA Star setup, so I need to reconfigure my bar every time I switch kites and a second bar would solve that for a price about 1/3 the price of the turbo bar.

... just so i understand, I can set the kite to fly from the power/ front lines OR brakes lines?

The difference being that one set up is designed for kitesurfing, while the other is for static/ without a harness?

I just want to understand my options and why one bar costs $200 plus and another is $60

thanks everyone,
Tim


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:45 pm 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:51 pm
Posts: 120
Location: Toronto, ON
This is the mess we get into when trying to fly fixed-bridle kites on a regular control bar.

The whole point of fixed bridle kites is that they're simple, and handles work well with them because they have so much freedom of movement. You can slack or tension any particular line almost totally independently of any other. This level of control is why handles are the de-facto choice for the vast majority of fixed-bridle kite fliers. Seriously, consider some handles.

In comparison, the freedom of movement offered by bars is very limited. You need to get everything set-up beforehand so the kite flies well within the limited range offered by the bar. As you can see, it requires a bunch of experimentation and fiddling about. And since most fixed bridles are meant for handles and they don't behave well when flown exclusively off the brakes, most people don't bother.

By putting the brake lines to the middle, the Peter Lynn bar you're looking at basically turns your 4-line Adam into a 3-line like the HQ Hydra. You could do the same thing with your Gaastra bar if you wanted, but it turns the chicken loop into a safety line and relaunch handle. All the power of the kite will be transmitted through the bar (which can get tiring) and as you let the bar out, it actually powers-up the kite up a bit more before stalling and reversing the kite--opposite to the behaviour of depower kites.

I really dislike 2 and 3-line foils because they put all the power through the control bar, which I think gives beginners the bad impression that they need to muscle a kite to get it to do what they want. I believe this is the leading cause of 'bar-against-the-chicken-loop-osis'. In order to avoid this, I use the following progression:

1. 4-line fixed bridle on handles
2. 4-line fixed bridle on handles, with strop and harness
3. 4-line depower foil on control bar
4. 4-line SLEI in the water

The handles are great to start with, as they provide excellent feedback in the hands. Once competently flying the kite, you can give the arms a break and hook-in with the strop between the front lines. This introduces managing the power of the kite with the body, and piloting it with dexterity. The depower foil introduces sheeting to manage the balance between power and responsiveness. Then when it's time for the inflatable, all the sensations and skills are familiar, and the focus can be put on the in-water skills: body dragging, self-rescue, body dragging with board, etc.

I've only got one person up to step 4 thus far, and a handful to step 3. But overall, the results are encouraging and the feedback has been positive thus far. Those at step 3 are mostly female, and mostly friends and family. The one dude at step 4 is an acquaintance who's found it's worked well for him; each step offering new challenges without being too much to manage. He comes from a surfing background with zero windsports experience. He was able to body-drag upwind (well, at least not losing ground) in straight onshore conditions with significant shorebreak on his very first try. I was thoroughly impressed.

You'll note there isn't a fixed-bridle on a bar in there. I was going to try it as step 3, but I ended-up getting the depower foil before anyone reached that point. While I'm still curious how my fixed bridle kites would perform on a bar, trying it out doesn't rank high on the list of 'things I want to do with a kite'.

So, getting back to your personal situation and to answer some of your questions more directly, what to do? Were I in your shoes, I'm not sure how much money I'd want to invest in the struggle of getting a 4-line fixed bridle kite to fly on a bar. Yes, the Adam can be steered off either the fronts or the rears, but the Peter Lynn bar doesn't really offer anything you can't do with your existing kit already, and the Turbo bar is expensive. The price difference is because of the fancy pulley system on the Turbo bar, it mimics the way one files a kite on handles--it's also pricey because it's a low-volume niche product. The number of people who want to fly 4-line fixed-bridle power kites on a bar is few.

Your conversion between the setups for the NPW and the Adam(s) shouldn't be too onerous, it's just a matter of adding or dropping one of the centre lines, is it not? You could just leave the rear flag-out stuff for the Adam(s) attached when you fly the NPW. Any other differences in the setup could probably be accommodated with line extensions on one kite or the other.

That said, I'd definitely get a set of handles. That way you'll be able to see how the Adam *can* perform, and will inform you as to how much brake tension it likes to be flown with.

Finally, if you're feeling really enterprising, you can convert your Adam to depower:



The bridle on your production version may be different than on his prototype. Bridle modifications are not for the faint of heart, and probably not something you'd want to undertake until you're very familiar with foils. They are however, a great way to pass a lot of time without even noticing.

To wit, I have an Aurora 15m and let me tell you; you get what you pay for. It's what I'd call an 'adequate' kite. It really reminded me of my gear from 2004 in terms of how difficult it was to use out of the box. It turned glacially slow and was wanting for power until the apparent wind kicked in, and then it was too much with no way to turn it off. I had two brief sessions on the water with it, and two on the ice with skis. I've now done the Niaboo bridle modification, but haven't had a chance to try flying it since doing the mod. A buddy who also did the mod says it's *way* better, but requires a bit of fine tuning to get it dialed. Perhaps then it will live-up to the hopes I had for it when I bought it as a "poor man's Flysurfer".

Even then, it's still a foil and it will have all the associated drawbacks. I don't mean to dash any hopes you may have had about reveling in the kiteboarding bliss of having a full quiver of cheap Auroras, but it's just not going to play out that way even if you're prepared to spend countless hours tying little bits of bridle. Inflatables are simply more user-friendly in the water. If you're on snow or land, then it's up for debate.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:55 am 
Offline
Rare Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:55 am
Posts: 12
Thanks again jbdc,

I thought you were another poster, I appreciate the straight goods and seeing my alternatives.

I hadn't really considered handles as I want to take the fastest and cheapest track to kitesurfing.

With two lessons under my belt I want to level up my kite flying and birthday dragging skills before taking a third.

The Nasa kite flew like crap on my bar until I added a "conversion kit" afternoon which it was much better, so switching means switching everything, not just tweaking line lengths. So another bar would be really handy. I think a very cheap or homemade bar would suffice.

I have watched the depower bridle video video its probably the best option but a time sucking corrected as you say : -?

I see the advantage if handles but I'm not sure I want to get then just for the purpose if growing out of then, aka I'm cheap and on a budget :-)-

Yes I want everything, fast, cheap and good.

For now I will stick with clunky, limited and free while being better educated and knowing my available options.

Thank again jbdc your help and comments confirmed my thought experiments about switching the line order.

Tim


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:48 pm 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:51 pm
Posts: 120
Location: Toronto, ON
Hey ravel, I'm glad you're finding the info helpful!

You should have no concern about 'outgrowing' a pair of handles. It just doesn't happen. I learned from a guy a couple weeks ago that when he was on his instructors' course they had them fly 4-line foils on handles. Which to me, is another nod of approval to their value as a teaching/learning tool even if you're already flying depower kites. And really, if you own any number of 4-line fixed bridle foils (even one) you owe it to yourself to get or make a pair.

When that guy who's on step 4 was still on step 1, we came-up with a fun exercise. He was progressing well with his kite control skills, so it was time to introduce a new goal to fly the kite with a little more intent than random figure eights. We started with making nice round circles, then squares, triangles etc. What next? It was then his partner who suggested, "Why not write your name?"

The point is there are things you can do with handles which are just impossible on a bar, like the sharp corners of a square, or a pinwheel turn to dot an 'i'. And it offers opportunities for learning which will help with your control on a bar. Even after a few years on the water, I still have a blast with the small kites on handles. I have to stop myself from grabbing the handles when instructing someone: "Let me show you!"

The best advice I can give you at this juncture is to avoid getting ahead of yourself and planning too far in advance. It's easy to go down blind alleys and waste money. Buying the old kite is an example of that. I did something similar when I first got my foils, before I learned that they don't fly well on regular bars, and that they produce a ton of power for their size; and now I have a 7m Quadrifoil KiteSurfer Competition XXL from around 2001 in mint condition which I don't quite know what to do with. Whoops.

Stick to sure things. The handles are a sure thing. That you'll want a newer inflatable which will get you out in the most common conditions for your area is a sure thing. That you'll want to start-out on a larger twin-tip, the same. After that, you won't really need to guess any more.

Check out my reply to this reddit thread to get an idea of how your needs can drive your purchases.

From what I know of it, the NPW is a simpler kite which might do just as well on a DIY bar or the Peter Lynn option you were looking at. The Adam(s) will probably need more flexibility, so using the Gaastra bar for that purpose might work better. Plus, it has those divisions in the pass-through hole which make it easy to string a flagging line.

I'd only suggest looking into a bridle conversion well after you're intimately familiar with the larger kite and are truly bored. I probably shouldn't have even brought it up, but I couldn't help myself; and you seem keen on the DIY stuff. If I had an Adam, I'd have reservations about doing it myself and I'd probably do a total replacement, labeling all the ends and removing the existing bridle so I could put it back should my experiment run amok. It would require a lot of thinking, planning, measuring, and sourcing materials before you even begin the finicky bits. Finding the right materials for the Aurora bridle mod wasn't easy even here in Canadia. Perhaps try to put it out of your mind for now and have fun with the kites you already have. Handles will help with that and can be made or bought cheaply. ;)

Best of luck!


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:24 am 
Offline
Rare Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:55 am
Posts: 12
Ok jbdc,

I'm well and thoroughly convinced not matter what, handles will greatly enhance my development at any level, but especially now.

And I understand HOW the amazing kite aerobatics are done, handles.

I like the strop idea too and think the ultimate solution is for me to reinvent the control bar altogether as that is what I do, invent and develop products.

So jbdc sensei thank you, and do you have any advice about what to look for and avoid when buying handles?

Tim


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Newbie needs help setting up an old 4 line Gaastra bar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:36 pm 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:51 pm
Posts: 120
Location: Toronto, ON
They're pretty simple; I have two sets: A pair somebody else made out of PVC, and some aluminum ones from Pansh. The only thing I'd take into consideration is their diameter, and the grip material.

The PVC ones are larger and the grips are a spongy foam, so they absorb sweat well but they're a bit bulky and over-large for smaller hands. The Pansh handles have a nice small diameter and more rubbery grips which can slip a bit when they get wet because they don't absorb sweat well; a pair of cycling or weight-lifting gloves obviates the sweat problem, but increases the effective diameter of the handles.

There are fancy ergonomic and lightweight handles of course; but pretty much anything will work well enough--especially on a strop, diameter becomes less of an issue--after all, they're basically a matching pair of bent sticks.

If you're crazy about safety, you might want to have a QR on your strop, but this is only really necessary for larger kites; or if you're using a pulley instead of just sliding the line along the harness hook.

I'm all for invention and innovation, so long as it's not chindogu--although I do think some chindogu is pretty awesome. ;)

Best of luck with your creations!


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], fourperf, Google [Bot], JaZone and 22 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group