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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Was going good until the personal dig at Dimitri :roll:

Quote:
REAL safety is dependant upon their UNDERSTANDING of the many potential factors involved and their potential interactions and not just memorization of some set “rules”.


Which comes down to experience and is very hard to get across in lessons.

Hindenburging..................do modern kites (apart from RRD) do this anymore??? Don't really see it these days, usually only time I see it is when learning jumps, swinging under the kite and leaving the kite behind you but even then most kites will float back.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:39 pm 
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I have a 2013 Ozone Edge 11m that hindenburged last week. I rode to shore in a dying breeze, and as I got close to shore the wind died completely. The kite hindenburged on me, and it wasn't even close to straight up at the time. There might have been a "swirl" in the wind that close to shore that helped cause it.

Don


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:15 pm 
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yes all kites can fall for one reason or another

agreeing with malibu kitesurfing, a large percentage of this topic is to acknowledge the fact that things in kiteboarding can be done in many different ways, and that the same worn out lesson agenda that was devised when we had very different gear, and has continued to be taught verbatum since back then may not be the only way to handle a kite (or the best way) anymore.


also there are many aspects of gear use and selection that are overlooked, misrepresented, or misunderstood, and in those areas things can be improved. in like 1 day. by a knowledgeable shop owner talking to the employees about how to talk to the clients about gear.



ever thought about why 12 oclock and an across the top of the window (10 -2) power stroke were recommended technique in 2001? keep in mind 10 -2 does not involve a lot of downward action, it is mostly across. Progression videos evolved it a little and recommended a little more of a downward stroke (although still beginning for some reason with the kite on the opposite side of the wind as rider is trying to go)


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:48 pm 
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Don Monnot wrote:
I have a 2013 Ozone Edge 11m that hindenburged last week. I rode to shore in a dying breeze, and as I got close to shore the wind died completely. The kite hindenburged on me, and it wasn't even close to straight up at the time. There might have been a "swirl" in the wind that close to shore that helped cause it.

Don


That isn't what I meant by hindenburging, any kite will drop out of the sky if there is no wind and although a pain as you'll need to do a pack down if you are on the water it isn't necessarily dangerous, just a pain in the b**t.

I was talking about kites than hindenburg and fall out of the sky, when being flown which can be dangerous as you can have the kite power up as it falls or the lines can get twisted and can affect the kite behaviour etc. Most kites these days will not hindenburg, they usually just float back into the window and carry on flying - I appreciate it is still possible to get any kite to hindenburg but usually only when trying jumps etc.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
I don't think new kites are any better than old kites are. I see hindenbergs constantly where I kite when it's a little gusty. It's always a new rider with this year's kite.

I think this subject is another one we have to file under "Really should do a more scientific study instead of just a bunch of anecdotes."

A newb came up to me yesterday and said "My kite Lindbergered!"

I go, "Hindenberged?"

He goes "Yes like the blimp!"


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:09 pm 
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Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
bnthere wrote:
yes all kites can fall for one reason or another

agreeing with malibu kitesurfing, a large percentage of this topic is to acknowledge the fact that things in kiteboarding can be done in many different ways, and that the same worn out lesson agenda that was devised when we had very different gear, and has continued to be taught verbatum since back then may not be the only way to handle a kite (or the best way) anymore.


also there are many aspects of gear use and selection that are overlooked, misrepresented, or misunderstood, and in those areas things can be improved. in like 1 day. by a knowledgeable shop owner talking to the employees about how to talk to the clients about gear.



ever thought about why 12 oclock and an across the top of the window (10 -2) power stroke were recommended technique in 2001? keep in mind 10 -2 does not involve a lot of downward action, it is mostly across. Progression videos evolved it a little and recommended a little more of a downward stroke (although still beginning for some reason with the kite on the opposite side of the wind as rider is trying to go)


Since we're not a shop and don't make enough on equipment to mention, I may be somewhat biased, but I think that people who make the bulk of their money from equipment sales want their employees to SELL stuff, especially the overstock that will be worth HALF as much in a couple of months and keep depreciating if not sold. Sales are their PRIMARY concern and since it is easy to sell a newvbie a less than ideal setup (the definition of which will be debatable in any event), and one way to LOSE sales is to add complication and/or uncertainty to a prospect's choices, it is understandable that a GOOD salesperson (from his boss's point of view) won't take the time (time is money) to try to educate someone who probably won't appreciate the effort and may become hesitant enough to not purchase.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:57 am 
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Quote:
although still beginning for some reason with the kite on the opposite side of the wind as rider is trying to go)


There's a reason that you start with the kite on the opposite side of the window, or just past 12. You can generate a longer power stroke and it avoids having to dive the kite too aggresively into the power zone which can cause problems with students.

For example on a windy day start with kite at 12 and as you dive it the kite stays towards the edge of the window=less power, on a light wind day start with kite past 12 and you get a longer power stroke through the middle of the window (ie not the centre power zone, middle power zone if you get me).


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:32 pm 
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Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
.
Here is an excerpted quote from one of my previous posts in this thread:

Go online and watch videos FROM INDUSTRY SOURCES of people jumping over their girlfriends, piers, boats – of little kids kiting – of people launching and landing upwind and in the middle of crowded beaches etc. and obviously a$$holes like us are just trying to increase their lesson costs by babbling on about safety. Especially if we try to explain that REAL safety is dependent upon their UNDERSTANDING of the many potential factors involved and their potential interactions and not just memorization of some set “rules”.”

Now check out the end of the BLADE promotional video posted yesterday at http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2382217 titled California Kitesurfing. Read the other posts there and ask yourself what you would say to yourself about “danger” and irresponsibility if you wanted to believe you could become a “kiter” easily.

Obviously, the short answer to the title of this thread is YES.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:01 pm 
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Location: Islamorada, Florida Keys
RichardM wrote:
.
Here is an excerpted quote from one of my previous posts in this thread:

Go online and watch videos FROM INDUSTRY SOURCES of people jumping over their girlfriends, piers, boats – of little kids kiting – of people launching and landing upwind and in the middle of crowded beaches etc. and obviously a$$holes like us are just trying to increase their lesson costs by babbling on about safety. Especially if we try to explain that REAL safety is dependent upon their UNDERSTANDING of the many potential factors involved and their potential interactions and not just memorization of some set “rules”.”

Now check out the end of the BLADE promotional video posted yesterday at http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2382217 titled California Kitesurfing. Read the other posts there and ask yourself what you would say to yourself about “danger” and irresponsibility if you wanted to believe you could become a “kiter” easily.

Obviously, the short answer to the title of this thread is YES.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


Boy! You are just the killjoy at parties aren't you?!


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:02 pm 
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Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
JGTR wrote:
Was going good until the personal dig at Dimitri :roll:

Quote:
REAL safety is dependant upon their UNDERSTANDING of the many potential factors involved and their potential interactions and not just memorization of some set “rules”.


Which comes down to experience and is very hard to get across in lessons.
...........


True. Perhaps this skill is one which helps to set better instructors apart.

In any case, it definitely requires substantially MORE TIME and fewer and fewer students want to pay for this time for the reasons previously mentioned.

noel wrote:
RichardM wrote:
.
Here is an excerpted quote from one of my previous posts in this thread:

Go online and watch videos FROM INDUSTRY SOURCES of people jumping over their girlfriends, piers, boats – of little kids kiting – of people launching and landing upwind and in the middle of crowded beaches etc. and obviously a$$holes like us are just trying to increase their lesson costs by babbling on about safety. Especially if we try to explain that REAL safety is dependent upon their UNDERSTANDING of the many potential factors involved and their potential interactions and not just memorization of some set “rules”.”

Now check out the end of the BLADE promotional video posted yesterday at http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2382217 titled California Kitesurfing. Read the other posts there and ask yourself what you would say to yourself about “danger” and irresponsibility if you wanted to believe you could become a “kiter” easily.

Obviously, the short answer to the title of this thread is YES.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


Boy! You are just the killjoy at parties aren't you?!

Perhaps comprehending the subject of this thread is a little complicated for you.

The point is that a student or prospect who CONSTANTLY sees the above described conduct and who doesn't WANT to believe that it is necessary to spend the EXTRA time, effort AND MONEY required to learn to be reasonably safe and responsible in order to do some “awesome waveslashing”, simply WILL NOT WANT TO PAY for said instruction and will tend to ignore and depreciate any given because it is less WORK for them to do so and is justifiable because it is CONTRADICTED by all the BS.

This means that in order to compete (and stay in business) with the people (or companies) who cater to the WISHFUL THINKING of prospects, proper instruction and/or sales advice is OMITTED, thereby leading to the ignorance which is the SUBJECT of this thread.

If every media presentation showing irresponsible behavior was replaced by one showing an ACCIDENT, you can be SURE that there would be NO NEED FOR THIS THREAD.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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