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 Post subject: Changing lengths of lines (Ozone kites)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:29 am 
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This summer I wanted to compare an 8m rally to an 8m catalyst. So, after flying the rally on 20m lines, I decided to put the 8m catalyst on 20m lines. I found that I did not really like the 8m catalyst to much. This was mainly due to the radius of the kite as it looped and the amount of pressure necessary to loop it.

Then, I decided to use the 25m lines on the 8m catalyst. Wow! The difference was night and day. I found the catalyst to be an awesome kite, perfectly tuned to fly on 25m lines. I would NEVER again fly the catalyst on 20m lines. I never knew that the lengths of the lines make such a profound difference in the flight characteristics of a kite.

My question is this: Are other kites so greatly impacted by a shortening/lengthening of line lengths? I see people putting the reo/c4 on shorter lines, are these kites not impacted like the catalyst? How about other brands of kite? What are the recommended line lengths and how do changes in the lines impact the kite? Lastly, what other things are there to consider when shortening/lengthening the lines? (Of course I have already taken into consideration response time, power generation and jumping ability).

Also, does Ozone recommend 25m lines on even their 6m and 4m catalysts? Has anyone tried putting these on shorter lines?


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 Post subject: Re: Changing lengths of lines (Ozone kites)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:10 am 
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Location: Saltspring Island, BC Canada & Mui Ne, Vietnam
All kites will be effected by longer lines for several reasons. You have a much longer power stroke and you will be able to generate power easier without diving the kite as much. Second, Wind Gradient. There is more wind up higher. Ozone really aims forward in the wind and likes apparent wind so you will do better with longer lines allowing you to really park the kite and ride..
Short lines are used when you want to direct the kite quickly such as in surfing waves. It also takes away some of the power which is also good for surfing waves. Since reo is a wave kite it would likely do best with shortish lines and the C4 can be worked the same but its not necessary to go short. Perhaps those riders were in waves or just wanted the quick snap for sent jumps. In high winds, (30-40 knots) I will ride with short lines (18-20m) since long lines bow too much and lose steering ability.
Try out some 30m lines sometime and you will see the difference again in the kite. I've ridden up to 37m lines but only for super light wind just for the hell of it. Not very easy, 37 is soooo slow but has great power stroke to get going. Find your sweet spot :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Changing lengths of lines (Ozone kites)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:58 am 
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Location: Italy
kites that work a lot on apparent wind work better with longer lines (as you said, Ozone but think also Gaastra Jekyll or other similar)

kites with more grunt at low speed are good with short lines (I have a Kahoona 5,5 that fly and pulls nicely with 18m lines)


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 Post subject: Re: Changing lengths of lines (Ozone kites)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:27 am 
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Does Ozone recommend 25m lines on even their 6m and 4m catalysts? Has anyone tried putting these on shorter lines?


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 Post subject: Re: Changing lengths of lines (Ozone kites)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:52 am 
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more or less at 30 mt height there are 2 knots wind difference than 20 mt .(vertical height) so with 25 mt lines you get nearly one more knot.
sometime in marginal conditions I use 32 mt lines instead of 25 with my 11 mt kite to get more power and be able to go upwind easier


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 Post subject: Re: Changing lengths of lines (Ozone kites)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:23 am 
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mmeyers12 wrote:
Does Ozone recommend 25m lines on even their 6m and 4m catalysts? Has anyone tried putting these on shorter lines?


It does not matter what Ozone recommends - they would not know in this case :wink:

If you like shorter lines on these, just do it :thumb:
If longer lines feel better, just do it :thumb:

25m is very long for 4 and 6m2 kites, but used by some as "light wind" lines with a 6m2 kite in waves.

Many like the opposite of what you want - namely that shorter lines gives a more direct response, and the kiteloop is better as it will be "close" to the water surface, so you get up higher relative to the kite, in kiteloops :naughty:
With longer lines, kiteloops are much easier though - as the kite just "loops around up high" and no risk, nor difficulty level, and not looking good, like short lined kite low loops does.

The "snap" when you whip the kite, is much better with shorter lines - so for freestyle you get a kite where you can change pull direction much faster, especially noticeable in the air and when doing aerial transitions :rollgrin:

The other way around - short lines gives a very on/off feeling that I dont like myself (talking bout less than 20m now), and you lose the effortless powerdelivery and backup totally :(

So the change when changing line lengths is extremely noticeable, for all kites indeed.

Some more than others, because as said, if a kite pulls a lot more with apparent wind (higher AR higher cambered kites typically), longer lines has a huge impact when you fly the kite around.
More "sit stable and grunty low AR pull kites" does often not gain much with longer lines :roll:

18 to 27meter is the range used by many as I see it (low wind - high wind - waves - jumps etc), but most often between 20 and 25meter is the most used.

8) Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Changing lengths of lines (Ozone kites)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:15 am 
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I have not purchased a 6m or 4m catalyst but I am considering them as the 8m catalyst (on 25m lines) is hands down the most amazing kite I have flown thus far. I think though, if I fly a 6m, I would prefer shorter lines. So, I think I would prefer to buy a kite that is designed to be flown on shorter lines (slingshot rally or rpm). Instead of a kite that is designed to be flown on longer lines. What do ya'll think?

Also, is it always accurate to say that if a kite flies more forward in the window, it is a kite designed to fly more on apparent wind? Hence the reason high aspect kites can fly in such low wind because as you generate apparent wind, they are able to continually perform as if there is still a decent amount of wind.

Thirdly, what do you mean by "camber?" Although I have heard this word before, I am not 100% clear on its meaning.

Lastly thanks everyone that has taken the time to comment. I greatly appreciate the information and have learned quite a bit from this post!


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 Post subject: Re: Changing lengths of lines (Ozone kites)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:56 am 
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Location: Saltspring Island, BC Canada & Mui Ne, Vietnam
mmeyers12 wrote:
I have not purchased a 6m or 4m catalyst but I am considering them as the 8m catalyst (on 25m lines) is hands down the most amazing kite I have flown thus far. I think though, if I fly a 6m, I would prefer shorter lines. So, I think I would prefer to buy a kite that is designed to be flown on shorter lines (slingshot rally or rpm). Instead of a kite that is designed to be flown on longer lines. What do ya'll think?

Also, is it always accurate to say that if a kite flies more forward in the window, it is a kite designed to fly more on apparent wind? Hence the reason high aspect kites can fly in such low wind because as you generate apparent wind, they are able to continually perform as if there is still a decent amount of wind.

Thirdly, what do you mean by "camber?" Although I have heard this word before, I am not 100% clear on its meaning.

Lastly thanks everyone that has taken the time to comment. I greatly appreciate the information and have learned quite a bit from this post!

I dont know that kites are "designed" to be flown on short lines When using a large kite its generally in light winds and there is benefit of greater power with longer lines. Many days I go out in 10 knots with a 16 on 32 meter lines but it would not be possible on 25's.

If you get a 4 or 6m kite, you will need quite a bit of wind to make it worthwhile. I ride some strong winds during the year (up to 35-40) and my smallest kite is a 6. I only get about 5-10 days a year that I want a small kite. Either way, I would recommend testing smaller sizes of Catalyst or any other kite before you buy. Often companies produce an awesome 8-10m range on any given model but smaller kites of the same model can be very different and you may not like it.
A kite designed with a high aspect ratio is generally meant for racing as its intended design and meant to go upwind very well but many of us use them for old school riding and floaty boosting kites. These kites are typically slower and have a large canopy that are more flat in shape.


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 Post subject: Re: Changing lengths of lines (Ozone kites)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:34 pm 
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mmeyers12 wrote:
This summer I wanted to compare an 8m rally to an 8m catalyst. So, after flying the rally on 20m lines, I decided to put the 8m catalyst on 20m lines. I found that I did not really like the 8m catalyst to much. This was mainly due to the radius of the kite as it looped and the amount of pressure necessary to loop it.

Then, I decided to use the 25m lines on the 8m catalyst. Wow! The difference was night and day. I found the catalyst to be an awesome kite, perfectly tuned to fly on 25m lines. I would NEVER again fly the catalyst on 20m lines. I never knew that the lengths of the lines make such a profound difference in the flight characteristics of a kite.

My take is that pulley-less bridled kites are more sensitive to line length changes than kites with pulley bridles. As the bridle tow vector becomes more inward with shorter lines, pulleys make so that the tension at the bridle attachment points on the leading edge remain constant.


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 Post subject: Re: Changing lengths of lines (Ozone kites)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:51 pm 
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"

Thirdly, what do you mean by "camber?" Although I have heard this word before, I am not 100% clear on its meaning.

"

Camber is the curvature of the profile along the chord. Some poster said above that apparent wind kites are higher cambered, but its quite the opposite. High camber (deep profile) means power at low speeds, but way too much drag preventing the attainment of higher speeds.


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