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 Post subject: Re: Different kite for snowkiting?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:42 pm 
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mogthedog wrote:
exactly av_dumitrascu don't know why plummet says foil snow kites don't fully depower, when I flew one in france up in the mountains, I pulled the brake webbing and the kite fully depowered and fell to the floor. :thumb:
Strange :baby:


Then you don't have enough experience to know what i'm talking about. Sure fly a foil and land it on the break lines at the bottom to mid end of its range and it is sweet. Try and do that same thing overpowered and you will find out that what i'm talking about.

The kite will have considerable power when landing. If its windy enough it may not even land.

Note: I have been flying foils since 2005.

PS Flag out safety is a big bonus on the more latest models of ozones. But throwing the flagout safety in over powered conditions will lead to one hell of a tangle.


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 Post subject: Re: Different kite for snowkiting?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:31 pm 
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If you really figure that LEI's depower more than foils that you obviously haven't kited a good foil that was designed in the last 4-5 years OR the foil you kited with was a crappy design (usually the cheaper brands/models out there => terrible design/ crap performance....what a bargain!).

I get massive depower with the foils I use and also foil kites normally offer a smother ride and much softer landings when boosting on land/snow surfaces (which are/can be much less forgiving than water). Furthermore a foil can "float" (as they are so light) so well while in the air that if it becomes mis-positioned by the rider (or in gusty condition) and simply gets blown back into the WW (near the edge)...super forgiving -> and that's great for confident kiting on less forgiving surfaces (snow/land).

Moreover, as foils are more forgiving you'll find yourself able to go further/ride harder on less-forgiving terrain with control and confidence. (IE land, back country snow, etc). Furthermore, with an OPEN-CELL foil you can collapse the kite instantly when necessary which kills 99% of the pull of the kite - knowing that this safety can be accessed will leave you with more confidence in taking your foil to be really enjoyed in lesser kited (more advanced) areas.

LEI kites are less forgiving but made for water use and since water is very forgiving that is a great match. Snowkiting with an LEI on a forgiving and basic snowkiting spot is great but when you want to do more in less-forgiving snowkiting spots (IE: mountain backcountry) or just want to push it with more confidence on snow, then a good foil kite is choice.

Hybrids (closed-cell foils) I have no use for, as they cannot collapse (instant safety) the same as a good open-cell foil. And for water use with a closed-cell foil, that is just way too much bridal in the water that can be very undesirable and furthermore you can't do a proper self-resuce (as on an LEI).

For best progression, to sum up:

LEI's => Water and snow use

Open-cell foils => Land and advanced snowkiting use

Who ever doesn't understand this hasn't spent enough time on a good foil kite while snowkiting or kite-landboarding (not just on an open beach).


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 Post subject: Re: Different kite for snowkiting?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:28 pm 
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No the Park is a great snowkite! We do a lot of snowkiting over here, and most people (that play and jump and are not beginners just crusing) ride tube/LEI kites... Even almost all of the schools that teaches snowkiting over here uses tube/LEI, so no worries, use your PARK! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Different kite for snowkiting?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:04 pm 
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just use your LEI , just avoid to crash/rip it on ice, trees, barbwires, that s all. should be all fine.

on snow/water:i used PL kites ( 4 lines C-shape water foils), i use flysurfer for snow/water, one kite for everything ( same QR, same kite behaviour)

and did a bunch of self rescue with LEI, PL kites, and LEI , LEI remains my worst and exhausting experience in self rescue.....never again.....neeeveeerrrrrrrrrrr..... (but if u need a floating device in self rescue, it has its use)


Last edited by voodoospirit on Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Different kite for snowkiting?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:05 pm 
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Both styles of kites will work great in the snow. Having FUN :) is the most important thing. I have a spent a lot of time snowkiting in mountains for 15 years. Currently, I depend on the characteristics of an inflatable kite. Any negatives about inflatables in the snow are far outweighed by the positives.


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 Post subject: Re: Different kite for snowkiting?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:23 pm 
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Peachez54 wrote:
If you really figure that LEI's depower more than foils that you obviously haven't kited a good foil that was designed in the last 4-5 years OR the foil you kited with was a crappy design (usually the cheaper brands/models out there => terrible design/ crap performance....what a bargain!).

For best progression, to sum up:

LEI's => Water and snow use

Open-cell foils => Land and advanced snowkiting use

Who ever doesn't understand this hasn't spent enough time on a good foil kite while snowkiting or kite-landboarding (not just on an open beach).


Though I agree with some of your statements. Some I don't.
Depower foils are slower with less depower at the bar than the equivalent lei size. When opereated in their wind range are awesome kites. They are more powerfull generally size for size. But have some entrained power still in them when you let the bar out when moving.

Recently I was kite buggying in sand dunes. Ok slightly different to snow kiting. but the same theories apply when kiting terrain. On one day I flew 15m speed 3 closed cell, 13m ozone edge lei, 10m ozone c4, and brand new 2014 12m ozone summit open cell foil. It was a good comparison between the 3 styles of kites

To my suprise i enjoyed the flight charactersitics of the leis more! this is a shock to me as i'm a die hard foil fan.

But the fact is the foils don't depower as much at the bar. I could let the bar out on the lie and easily safely trundle to the bottle of the hill without fear of being lofted or over powered. I could crank a high up wind line going upwind down hill. The faster lei was more fun to throw around and react to the terrain in front of me.

In fact I experienced a "death run" down one slope on the 12m summit. I just couldn't shut the power down on the summit and ended up cranking down this slow at high speed. The exact same slope on the 13m edge was easy to navigate. let the bar out and cruise down.

My summary.

Foils,

easy launch and land, smooth powered delivery. dont need to pump. more compact and can carry spare kites. generally good float and less need for a perfect redirect.
worse in turbulent rotor conditions, smaller wind range.

Open cells collapse more in in gusty conditions that closed cell. closed cell have better slack line capability. But are more powered on the brakes when landed. Flag out safety on closed cell foils kills the power as much as open cell.


leis,
faster more, depower, more stable in turbulent conditions. best slack line/drift capability.
harder to solo launch, less robust, needs pumping harder to take spare kite.


Lastly. ride what you are used to. If you are not used to foils and ride leis 99% of the time then you will hate the foil.

But want to do back country riding? then you need to get into foils for the ease if pack up/set up and the safety of being able to take a spare kite with you.


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 Post subject: Re: Different kite for snowkiting?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:38 pm 
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My 0.02, what ever you've got. Same as others said, if you have easy access to your car, pump it up. If you're hiking lots, consider the foil, if it's not too gusty.

Quote:
Image

Great shot, great lines.


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 Post subject: Re: Different kite for snowkiting?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:23 pm 
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Dag88 wrote:
Just a quick question I was talking to a buddy and he was saying if I want to snow kite ill need a kite made for the snow rather then the water? Is this true or can I use my Naish Park just the same? Thanks!


Yep, can use your Naish Park just the same, no probs. I would invest in soft (park-style) snowboard boots though. Snowkiting is awesome! :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Different kite for snowkiting?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:10 am 
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william_rx7 wrote:
... If you're hiking lots, consider the foil, if it's not too gusty.

Quote:
Image

Great shot, great lines.


My10M Peter-Lynn Venom, will handle Nasty Gusty wind at Mohave up to
45mph ; not that i'd wanna do that in snow ; but just saying.
I weigh 210Lb.

That shot is gonna make me have a hard time sleeping tonight ; just
Fricken AWESOME !!!!!

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Different kite for snowkiting?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:38 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:30 pm
Posts: 87
voodoospirit wrote:
just use your LEI , just avoid to crash/rip it on ice, trees, barbwires, that s all. should be all fine.

on snow/water:i used PL kites ( 4 lines C-shape water foils), i use flysurfer for snow/water, one kite for everything ( same QR, same kite behaviour)

and did a bunch of self rescue with LEI, PL kites, and LEI , LEI remains my worst and exhausting experience in self rescue.....never again.....neeeveeerrrrrrrrrrr..... (but if u need a floating device in self rescue, it has its use)


What are water foils? Did you mean Peter Lynn closed cell arc type kites?
How on earth self rescuing a massive piece of wet cloth with bridles is easier than LEI? Especially in deep water?


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