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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:20 pm 
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Getting yanked upwards way more than sideways 4 examples I know of/witnessed - all involved the turbulent wind in front of high objects such as sand dunes /cliffs - we don't really have many beaches where riders kite near buildings that could cause this turbulence. (from the database many other countries seem to though).

1. nzs own eric event - close to dune - dragged up it then travelled over tree (60ft high+) car park, road and then into golf course flew down to safety stayed in control.

2.Launched near sand dune, was on older kite - updraghts dragged up up in air reall fast - decided to eject 20-30ft up ats felt liek was about to get lifted up over dune into trees 1-200 foot away. very soft sand saved their ass injuries not too bad

3. Launching close to a cliff face got yanked upwards and dislocated shoulder on impact /way down.

4.got dragged out of water then back in control a bit, then while on beach kite hindenberged for a second, then lit up sideways lifting them in air - throwing them 40ft, then tried to gain control and over compensated and flew with a kiteloop another 30 -40 ft at least through fence, into park onto head - spilt head open, ankle like a balloon - off to hospital. This was due to being right next to cliff face and also was quite unstable wind also - being not so far from cliff was reason I think it happened - reason for hindenberg then sudden gust powering up kite sideways very hard.

The meridian hotel where PRKA takes place in New Caledonia is a classic example - you hook a jump near it and you know all about extra uplift of wind/ the effects of turbulence.

The last example was a classic example of why I don't think you can assume someone can release easily at point between consecutive draggings/throwing even with a second or 2 and a good quick release, but I agree that during lessons you need to teach good reaction to a releasing the kite at any time, not just show student how QR works without kite in air. I always taught this. I tell them I will randomly ask them to release - only had one student release without hesitation - many are super hesitant, they do it until they got it down. Kiteschools generally don't do this because they worry about their bottom $ - ie kite damage kite when releasing (i asked a few) - have never damaged kite teaching this myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:26 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:25 pm
Posts: 12
Tiago1973 wrote:
was to write it was not mainly about the QR but about rigging a 12m kite in a 9m weather and use it in a less friendly spot without the proper experience to handle unforeseen events

then just as a quick check had a look on the rated wind range for the kite in question
Attachment:
Rebel rated wing range.JPG


these tables are mostly used by people new to the sport

this shit is plain wrong


This is a whole separate topic: what are the true wind ranges of these kites?

It's a problem in stunt kites, too (with less risk involved, of course). When I'm at my local lake flying stunters, people will come up to me with a kite they bought at the beach for $30 and want to know why it doesn't fly in inconsistent 5mph inland wind. "But the wind range on the package says 3-35 mph!" I usually say that those wind range specs are a lot like the numbers saying you can fit 4 people in a camping tent -- they work only in absolutely ideal conditions, as in the campers are all under 4 feet tall and 80 pounds, wearing summertime clothes, and are comfortable sleeping in each others' arms. :-)

The odd part is that some stunt kite companies grossly overestimate the low end of their kites and others overestimate the high end. I have a Rev B-series mid-vent and it can easily handle the top mark of 20mph, and I've gone even higher with a 4-wrap frame, and I'm just an intermediate flyer. But 3mph with a 2-wrap frame? You'd better be very, very good and have laboratory-grade smooth wind. By contrast, my Prism 4-D flies like a hummingbird in winds above 8mph; I couldn't imagine flying it in the listed 15. Then I have (and dearly love) two Jest of Eve Talons. Maybe because they were made by one guy and not a company, the stated wind range is too conservative on the bottom ends -- they perform fine a bit below the stated ranges.

I had a great downwinder a week ago on my 9m switchy. We started out with wind at about 20mph but by the end of the trip, the wind reports were showing 25. As a 155-pound beginner, I was LIT on that kite; I could get going at full speed, fully depowered, just by bringing the kite from 12 to 11ish. I'm sure that you pros out there could have brought the kite down and edged against it in that much wind, but the book I got from Cab shows the top end at 30 mph! I know all of us kiters are at least a little crazy, but flying that 9 in 30mph winds has gotta be over some line.

Sure would be nice if we had really accurate wind measurements so in reviews people could talk about how much power they had at a certain wind speed. Then we could annotate the manufacturer's ranges with a rideable wind range and a "get back to land before you get killed" range.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:52 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:54 am
Posts: 113
timothymcmackin wrote:

This is a whole separate topic: what are the true wind ranges of these kites?

It's a problem in stunt kites, too (with less risk involved, of course). When I'm at my local lake flying stunters, people will come up to me with a kite they bought at the beach for $30 and want to know why it doesn't fly in inconsistent 5mph inland wind. "But the wind range on the package says 3-35 mph!" I usually say that those wind range specs are a lot like the numbers saying you can fit 4 people in a camping tent -- they work only in absolutely ideal conditions, as in the campers are all under 4 feet tall and 80 pounds, wearing summertime clothes, and are comfortable sleeping in each others' arms. :-)

The odd part is that some stunt kite companies grossly overestimate the low end of their kites and others overestimate the high end. I have a Rev B-series mid-vent and it can easily handle the top mark of 20mph, and I've gone even higher with a 4-wrap frame, and I'm just an intermediate flyer. But 3mph with a 2-wrap frame? You'd better be very, very good and have laboratory-grade smooth wind. By contrast, my Prism 4-D flies like a hummingbird in winds above 8mph; I couldn't imagine flying it in the listed 15. Then I have (and dearly love) two Jest of Eve Talons. Maybe because they were made by one guy and not a company, the stated wind range is too conservative on the bottom ends -- they perform fine a bit below the stated ranges.

I had a great downwinder a week ago on my 9m switchy. We started out with wind at about 20mph but by the end of the trip, the wind reports were showing 25. As a 155-pound beginner, I was LIT on that kite; I could get going at full speed, fully depowered, just by bringing the kite from 12 to 11ish. I'm sure that you pros out there could have brought the kite down and edged against it in that much wind, but the book I got from Cab shows the top end at 30 mph! I know all of us kiters are at least a little crazy, but flying that 9 in 30mph winds has gotta be over some line.

Sure would be nice if we had really accurate wind measurements so in reviews people could talk about how much power they had at a certain wind speed. Then we could annotate the manufacturer's ranges with a rideable wind range and a "get back to land before you get killed" range.


There's not much you can do about that problem. It costs money to install and maintain wind sensors and every kiting area that has one has different terrain and conditions that affect what the wind speed readings actually mean to you if you kite there. Add that to different kiter weights, varying skills, twin tip vs directional, etc., and in the end you just have to use the manufacturers' wind range estimates as a very rough estimate.

Your "get back to land before you get killed" idea just won't work - that's something you have to figure out for yourself. Besides, when you are out there on the water and the wind picks up, you won't have a wind speed reading anyway. You have to go by feel. When you were on the water at 20mph, were you using any depower? If so, maybe you should have been on a smaller kite. One of things you have to think about when picking a kite size is whether or not you think the wind is going to get stronger or weaker and plan accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:58 pm
Posts: 668
spec 26Knt for the upper range of a 9m does not sound unreasonable to me

in doubt of size to use ask advise from your local crew

in any case the next time you feel overpowered try to lower your kite really close to the water, it will be easier to keep control than to ride with it at 11 o´clock


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:01 pm
Posts: 96
timothymcmackin wrote:
I had a great downwinder a week ago on my 9m switchy. We started out with wind at about 20mph but by the end of the trip, the wind reports were showing 25. As a 155-pound beginner, I was LIT on that kite; I could get going at full speed, fully depowered, just by bringing the kite from 12 to 11ish. I'm sure that you pros out there could have brought the kite down and edged against it in that much wind, but the book I got from Cab shows the top end at 30 mph! I know all of us kiters are at least a little crazy, but flying that 9 in 30mph winds has gotta be over some line.

Sure would be nice if we had really accurate wind measurements so in reviews people could talk about how much power they had at a certain wind speed. Then we could annotate the manufacturer's ranges with a rideable wind range and a "get back to land before you get killed" range.


Wind ranges vary widely with rider level, weight and riding style.

Most wind range charts are based average rider of good ability and average weight (180 lbs ish?)

At 155 pounds and a beginner, I you qualify for neither of these and should have sought further advice from seasoned kiters rather than looking at a manufacturer chart.

For many kiters, 25 knots is perfect 9m weather, and only gets uncomfortable at 30+.

Common sense seems to be the most overlooked requirement in many instances. Know yourself, know your limits, if any doubt at all seek advice from others.

In becoming mainstream, kiting has attracted many people who refuse to accept or understand the sport is easy to access, easy to do yet with very serious potential consequences if things go wrong.

You and you alone are responsible for your own safety. Blaming manufacters, instructors etc is pure bullshit. Take responsibility for your actions!


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:52 am
Posts: 278
Location: Norfolk, UK
g00se wrote:
timothymcmackin wrote:
I had a great downwinder a week ago on my 9m switchy. We started out with wind at about 20mph but by the end of the trip, the wind reports were showing 25. As a 155-pound beginner, I was LIT on that kite; I could get going at full speed, fully depowered, just by bringing the kite from 12 to 11ish. I'm sure that you pros out there could have brought the kite down and edged against it in that much wind, but the book I got from Cab shows the top end at 30 mph! I know all of us kiters are at least a little crazy, but flying that 9 in 30mph winds has gotta be over some line.

Sure would be nice if we had really accurate wind measurements so in reviews people could talk about how much power they had at a certain wind speed. Then we could annotate the manufacturer's ranges with a rideable wind range and a "get back to land before you get killed" range.


Wind ranges vary widely with rider level, weight and riding style.

Most wind range charts are based average rider of good ability and average weight (180 lbs ish?)

At 155 pounds and a beginner, I you qualify for neither of these and should have sought further advice from seasoned kiters rather than looking at a manufacturer chart.

For many kiters, 25 knots is perfect 9m weather, and only gets uncomfortable at 30+.

Common sense seems to be the most overlooked requirement in many instances. Know yourself, know your limits, if any doubt at all seek advice from others.

In becoming mainstream, kiting has attracted many people who refuse to accept or understand the sport is easy to access, easy to do yet with very serious potential consequences if things go wrong.

You and you alone are responsible for your own safety. Blaming manufacters, instructors etc is pure bullshit. Take responsibility for your actions!


Agree with this... I'm a bigger rider, 105kg, so 9m weather for me is quite different to other riders with fewer pies on board. And even at my size there are more skilled riders who will head out on a 9 when I would switch down. At my local spot we often see huge kite size variations as each rider chooses what works for them. Must say that although I like to be slightly over powered I do tend to switch down kite sizes early...because it increases the safety margin. In my view if you have to pull in the depower just to ride normally you're cutting into your safety margin. It's a simple equation that each rider has to learn to judge for him/her self and to act accordingly in the circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:00 am
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Location: World (KF Admin)
the problem is when you get lofted, you don't know it!
no one knows if you get lofted 1m or 50m...

So, you need to avoid a lofting before it happens, or you need to be prepared to fly it.
These are your only options...so be prepared by anticipation and awareness.

A 9m kite wind range is very relative! Looking at it doesn't make sense, you need to know your range. On the website are only numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:29 pm 
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well there is something constructive right there. rider weight should be considered in kite manual info of wind ranges or at minimum that the figures are for an 80kg rider.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:33 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:17 pm
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Location: jackson WY
Check out these loftings! Eckmans video is a great example of exactly what you should try to do. I think he handeled his lofting perfectly!
https://vimeo.com/m/39377571


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:05 am 
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Location: The New Old West
whoa...that's quite a nice place , was that you at the end?


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