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Average Joe Kite Review- Light wind kites

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UKSurf
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Re: Average Joe Kite Review- Light wind kites

Postby UKSurf » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:15 pm

OceanAdventures wrote:Sounds like you know more about us than we do. Guys thanks for the support, we really appreciate it and yes we don't let comments like this stop us.


I wouldnt listen to this twat trying to trash your efforts. You are doing a service to the kitesurf community and I hope you continue to do more reviews. Of course your opinions of kites are based on your personal riding style, but I doubt anyone on this forum with their head screwed on the right way thinks your reviews are anything more than your honest opion. As you have already said brands that you would find it hard to review objectively (such as Switch) you dont review.

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Re: Average Joe Kite Review- Light wind kites

Postby Dimitri M » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:21 pm

Dimitri I agree :thumb:
Since we're talking about reviews, would you add your opinion pros and cons on the Strutless idea you had experience with :?:
People saw you flying it and we know you had intention to replace the Infinity with Strutless,
so we'd like to know what made you to decide the Infinity is more suitable for light winds than the Strutless :?:
A

Hello Aummm.
Momi and I have been working on strutless kite just before we introduce the INFINITY V1 kite which was 3 years ago. Our first INFINITY V1 prototype kite was a "strut less" kite, but after few tests we decided to add just a middle strut, and after few more test decided to go with 3 struts, because of the better performance the kite was giving us by having more struts on the canopy. This is when we introduce the INFINITY V1 kite. I did ask Momi to work on having the INFINITY V4 kite "struless" since it has become a fad for light wind and he almost killed me.

So to answer your question, having a strutless kite is a good idea but again some of the issues are that the kite is not as smooth flying through the air. The kite has too much grunt because of its deep pocket and some times won't depower as well as having a kite with 3 or 6 struts. The kite will give you a heavier bar pressure compare to other kites. The kite won't be as responsive as other kites with struts (only on the big sizes because on smaller size a 10 m strutless kite will respond almost as fast as a kite with 3 to 6 struts). The kite won't be as easy to relaunch in very light conditions (8 to 10 knots) compare to a kite with struts. Plus the canopy tends to get distort much faster and makes a lot of noise when turning compare to having 3 to 6 struts on your canopy.
So in few words, the performance of a "strutless" kite is not as good as having struts, but it does work or else we would not have this conversation.
On the other hand, a "strutless" kite weighs less then having 3 to 6 struts, has more grunt power and packs very well if you plan to travel. Plus you don't have to worry about pumping your struts or having to replace the bladders on the struts.
So if you are looking for a performance kite, you best bet will be to go with a kite that has 3 struts and more. But if you are not looking for a performance kite and travels a lot then having a "strutless" kite might not be a bad idea. We are working on a new model that will have "NO STRUTS" and this kite will be more for the snow and the "Average Joe".
But once again, I think you need to test both of them to understand what I am trying to explain, because both of these kites are good kites, it just depends what you are in the market for.

I hope that answers your question :thumb:
Last edited by Dimitri M on Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Average Joe Kite Review- Light wind kites

Postby soul19 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:34 pm

Well I am about as average as you can get for kiting and I had my first go on the infinity today in some of the gustiest winds possible. I got to see the absolute limits to what I can kite in and that would be around 18kts (more of a hang on and get back to the truck on the ice type kiting). The kite has really good constant pull and I can see how some would find that it is hard to hold an edge upwind. I had to lean more over on my rear heel and was able to correct that problem immediately. Very nice kite and one that was a session saver when the winds dropped below 10kts and I couldn't ride the 10m Ltd anymore as the wind was way to light! Got back on the Infinity and had one of the best sessions all winter!! The kite actually turned fairly well and wasn't the sluggish beast that I thought it was going to be. I will go on the record and state that I am not a LW kiter and would much rather be on a 7-10m kite.... after today that may have changed :thumb:

James

In no way am I intending to challenge the XL review and honestly need more time on this kite to get it completely dialed. I do think that it is a kite that I could easily add into my quiver and probably triple my yearly sessions (isn't that the point of these kites in the first place :D )

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Re: Average Joe Kite Review- Light wind kites

Postby OceanAdventures » Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:04 pm

soul19 wrote:Well I am about as average as you can get for kiting and I had my first go on the infinity today in some of the gustiest winds possible. I got to see the absolute limits to what I can kite in and that would be around 18kts (more of a hang on and get back to the truck on the ice type kiting). The kite has really good constant pull and I can see how some would find that it is hard to hold an edge upwind. I had to lean more over on my rear heel and was able to correct that problem immediately. Very nice kite and one that was a session saver when the winds dropped below 10kts and I couldn't ride the 10m Ltd anymore as the wind was way to light! Got back on the Infinity and had one of the best sessions all winter!! The kite actually turned fairly well and wasn't the sluggish beast that I thought it was going to be. I will go on the record and state that I am not a LW kiter and would much rather be on a 7-10m kite.... after today that may have changed :thumb:

James

In no way am I intending to challenge the XL review and honestly need more time on this kite to get it completely dialed. I do think that it is a kite that I could easily add into my quiver and probably triple my yearly sessions (isn't that the point of these kites in the first place :D )



That sounds about right. We did like the infinity in the 9kts and up range. Just the day we did the big test it was lighter. Glad you found a big kite to get on the water more James, that' IS what it's all about!

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Re: Average Joe Kite Review- Light wind kites

Postby Aummm » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:17 pm

Dimitri M wrote:Hello Aummm.
Momi and I have been working on strutless kite just before we introduce the INFINITY V1 kite which was 3 years ago. Our first INFINITY V1 prototype kite was a "strut less" kite, but after few tests we decided to add just a middle strut, and after few more test decided to go with 3 struts, because of the better performance the kite was giving us by having more struts on the canopy. This is when we introduce the INFINITY V1 kite. I did ask Momi to work on having the INFINITY V4 kite "struless" since it has become a fad for light wind and he almost killed me.

So to answer your question, having a strutless kite is a good idea but again some of the issues are that the kite is not as smooth flying through the air. The kite has too much grunt because of its deep pocket and some times won't depower as well as having a kite with 3 or 6 struts. The kite will give you a heavier bar pressure compare to other kites. The kite won't be as responsive as other kites with struts (only on the big sizes because on smaller size a 10 m strutless kite will respond almost as fast as a kite with 3 to 6 struts). The kite won't be as easy to relaunch in very light conditions (8 to 10 knots) compare to a kite with struts. Plus the canopy tends to get distort much faster and makes a lot of noise when turning compare to having 3 to 6 struts on your canopy.
So in few words, the performance of a "strutless" kite is not as good as having struts, but it does work or else we would not have this conversation.
On the other hand, a "strutless" kite weighs less then having 3 to 6 struts, has more grunt power and packs very well if you plan to travel. Plus you don't have to worry about pumping your struts or having to replace the bladders on the struts.
So if you are looking for a performance kite, you best bet will be to go with a kite that has 3 struts and more. But if you are not looking for a performance kite and travels a lot then having a "strutless" kite might not be a bad idea. We are working on a new model that will have "NO STRUTS" and this kite will be more for the snow and the "Average Joe".
But once again, I think you need to test both of them to understand what I am trying to explain, because both of these kites are good kites, it just depends what you are in the market for.

I hope that answers your question :thumb:
Hello Dimitri, I'm pleased :cheers:

and thank you for revealing your experience of testing and how you negated the design limitations of the strutless :clap:

A
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Re: Average Joe Kite Review- Light wind kites

Postby ronnie » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:56 am

As Dimitri said, the best way to get an opinion about a kite is to actually fly it yourself.

I'm patiently waiting for the opinions of the riders who have actually flown the C2 to find out what it is like.

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Re: Average Joe Kite Review- Light wind kites

Postby ronnie » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:11 pm

One thing that has struck me about the lightwind kite test is the use of twintips.

Now that excellent lightwind kites have been developed, they allow going further down into lighter winds.
Part of the problem is that the power of the wind is dropping as the square of the wind, so as you get into the low numbers, the power is dropping rapidly.

Twintips work well from about 12mph up.
Below that a bit more efficiency and speed would help.

A board like the Flyboards Razor might fit the bill (although there are many alternatives).
For a big guy, it would plane early and efficiently, go upwind very well and have a higher top speed, so it could jump higher.
Just a thought?
http://flysurfer.com/produkte/boards/razor/


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Re: Average Joe Kite Review- Light wind kites

Postby The Captain » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:30 pm

ronnie wrote:One thing that has struck me about the lightwind kite test is the use of twintips.

Now that excellent lightwind kites have been developed, they allow going further down into lighter winds.
Part of the problem is that the power of the wind is dropping as the square of the wind, so as you get into the low numbers, the power is dropping rapidly.

Twintips work well from about 12mph up.
Below that a bit more efficiency and speed would help.

A board like the Flyboards Razor might fit the bill (although there are many alternatives).
For a big guy, it would plane early and efficiently, go upwind very well and have a higher top speed, so it could jump higher.
Just a thought?
http://flysurfer.com/produkte/boards/razor/



You are correct, if the goal is to test low end kiting limits, but the goal was to compare these kites in average conditions with average riders. Pros and cons for the most fun riding. Finding the absolute low end gear combination is a whole other topic.

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Re: Average Joe Kite Review- Light wind kites

Postby ronnie » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:00 pm

The Captain wrote:
ronnie wrote:One thing that has struck me about the lightwind kite test is the use of twintips.

Now that excellent lightwind kites have been developed, they allow going further down into lighter winds.
Part of the problem is that the power of the wind is dropping as the square of the wind, so as you get into the low numbers, the power is dropping rapidly.

Twintips work well from about 12mph up.
Below that a bit more efficiency and speed would help.

A board like the Flyboards Razor might fit the bill (although there are many alternatives).
For a big guy, it would plane early and efficiently, go upwind very well and have a higher top speed, so it could jump higher.
Just a thought?
http://flysurfer.com/produkte/boards/razor/



You are correct, if the goal is to test low end kiting limits, but the goal was to compare these kites in average conditions with average riders. Pros and cons for the most fun riding. Finding the absolute low end gear combination is a whole other topic.


I was meaning it as an off-topic observation - not a criticism.

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Re: Average Joe Kite Review- Light wind kites

Postby loco4viento » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:50 pm

I'd be interested in a light wind kite comparison that evaluates which kites can get people riding (upwind) in the lightest of light winds.

Most comparisons seem to be in somewhat light winds (10-12 knots) when lots of kites work. I'd like to know which kites would be the last ones out when the wind is dying. The kites that allow someone to ride when it's otherwise not possible. Maybe in 6-9 knots. And to compare kites effectively, of course they should all be compared on the same boards.

That might not interest some, but it would sure interest me.


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