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 Post subject: Re: Safe student launch?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:27 pm 
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BWD wrote:
Quote:
I have personally done this over 10,000 times
:rollgrin: why am i not surprised,
mr malibu strikes again
Then again, 10000 times means theoretically every day for over 27 years, or three times a day for over 9 years.
Therefore what you are saying is statistically likely to be a pile of horseshit.
Because this makes no allowance for the wind not blowing every day, or for holidays.
Or other elements of what is called "reality."

Quote:
and although some were not as safe as others and a few represented an error of judgment where the risk wasn’t justified,

No kidding, which ones, like 9999 of them?
:rollgrin:
It seems like all the bad instructors are outing themselves here.
Actually a good thing, might save a life.

Thank you for pointing out my error, which I should have caught since I was trying to be conservative with my estimate. I misplaced a zero and the actual figure should have been 1,000 (but still is likely to be over 2000, especially including when the student passes the kite back or even, horror of horrors, to another STUDENT).

Although your posts indicate that you're obviously an "authority" on all the subjects on which you post, it seems to have somehow missed your attention that there are conditions DIFFERENT than what you are evidently familiar with. Additionally, in this particular thread, you demonstrate your lack of knowledge regarding the benefits of using the MOST STABLE kites for teaching, which are admittedly relatively unknown, but of which I'm surprised an "expert" such as yourself has no knowledge. The above deficiencies may help explain why you apparently also are unaware that there are different teaching styles, some of which are mandated by the prevailing conditions and some of which are selected for other reasons, including economic considerations.

In fact, I doubt that you are an instructor and would be interested in seeing any web site or other media in which you advertise.

However, I'm glad to see that you apparently took some of my advice to heart as indicated by your use of the qualifier "likely" rather than stating unequivocally that my statement was "a pile of horseshit". Keep up this good practice.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Safe student launch?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:39 pm 
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Quote:
[I will say this though, there are some kiters I would pass a kite to, and some I would not.


That's why most schools start on land based kites and do not progress into LEIs until the student has mastered land based flying, demonstrates a good understanding of the wind window etc and the ability to follow basic instruction.


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 Post subject: Re: Safe student launch?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:07 pm 
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balugh wrote:
BWD wrote:
Advice to newbies:
I would not trust an instructor that would pass you a full size flying kite for which you had not MASTERED the steering, sheeting, safety release, launch and landing, especially if the kite is overhead. Wingtip on water is safer, preferably with someone holding the LE.

Instructors that pass a new student a flying kite, especially near shore or obstacles, are demonstrating a CASUAL attitude toward your safety.
If you feel the least bit uncomfortable with the situation,
DO NOT LET THEM PASS YOU THE KITE.
Even with undersized bow kites in light wind, it's not really safe.
Just my opinion, feel free to spin the wheel of fate.
Might want to carry good insurance though....


Interesting point about mastering kite skills before passing a kite 'in flight'. I've seen it work fine with some people...starting them from the edge. I've also seen them go instantly windshield wiper up and over the other side....and back again....etc. So while I agree that it's often the safest place to hand over a kite the student might not have the skills to launch a kite under control and keep it in a stable, benign, flight overhead. Yes...they should spend more time on the beach with the trainer kite then....and yes the instructor should be 'on the spot' to make sure they're doing the right stuff but it is always a step up to 'the big kites' regardless. So...starting them 'at the top' where the kite is flying in a stable manner can be the lesser evil. They should then learn to fly it to the water and back up again....

balugh raises an important safety consideration with his mention of the "windshield wiper" effect (great description) in that should it occur, the kite has the opportunity to create the MAXIMUM amount of power since it not only can go through the strongest part of the power zone, but also can use the ENTIRE window to accelerate, thereby additionally creating the MAXIMUM amount of apparent wind power.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Safe student launch?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:16 pm 
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Agree^^^^^

Modern kites will sit at zenith with minimal effort so good to start students in this way with small steering inputs to build their skills.

Starting a student off the water is a worry as they can oversteer it and wang it across the window, also in marginal winds they oversheet it which is another issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Safe student launch?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:53 pm 
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JGTR wrote:
Agree^^^^^

Modern kites will sit at zenith with minimal effort so good to start students in this way with small steering inputs to build their skills.

Starting a student off the water is a worry as they can oversteer it and wang it across the window, also in marginal winds they oversheet it which is another issue.


:thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Safe student launch?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:28 pm 
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BWD wrote:
Well you have a point and maybe I wrote too much on the subject already.
I will say this though, there are some kiters I would pass a kite to, and some I would not.
One more reason not to, is that it doesn't teach the student anything much of value. That is really not fair when tuition is usually $75-100 per hour.
Starting out, you learn something just about every time you launch or land a kite, and it's important to master the skills. That is what the student is paying for, not to be handed a kite and get another downwind drag with no consequences, like at Disney World or the state fair!

So I still see passing a kite to a student as a lazy shortcut or a way to get a student to fly a kite somewhere they shouldn't, like on a narrow or crowded beach.

But people are getting away with it with beginners, maybe it is safer than I think. Maybe I am biased because I don't have enough experience with really slow, stable kites, having learned on Cs 10y ago and still flying quick turning, powerful kites.
Still, it might be safe for the instructor at that particular moment, but it is not going to be so safe a week or a month later when the student who has only launched and landed with supervision say 5 times, instead of 10 or 20, is out on the beach kiting alone, or with only the help of another beginner or bystander.
Launching and landing, as with airplanes, is where most of the danger is.
Passing the kite to students in the air deprives them of practice to manage the risks.
I 'll concede though I have less problem with it out on a shallow water flat, off a boat or jet ski, etc. On or near the beach though, it's always going to rub me the wrong way.

With that I'll try to let this one go though, seems most posters don't agree with me....


“So I still see passing a kite to a student as a lazy shortcut or a way to get a student to fly a kite somewhere they shouldn't, like on a narrow or crowded beach.”

Although this COULD be the case, it does not necessarily HAVE to be the reason.

For instance, consider that professional instruction is a BUSINESS. As such, it is necessarily important to try to provide as much VALUE, from the particular CLIENT’S perspective, as possible.

In our case, because most students have no equipment and use ours (and we are NOT a shop), we take a less usual approach in that we want the student to FIRST become reasonably competent at controlling as much power, especially on land, as is reasonably safe (usually means keeping control while being dragged HARD at least 30+ feet. NOTE: Requires soft sand). This means that ideally their first lessons spend as much time as possible actually flying kites doing various drills on LAND (where the MOST danger exists) at the expense of the relatively time consuming process of becoming PROFICIENT at the admittedly critical skills associated with launching and landing. Note, however, that said proficiency is UNNECESSARY UNTIL they OWN a kite.

The theory being that, for all we know, the student will not be taking any more instruction and/or may purchase a different kite with different launch/landing and other different characteristics/features than what they used in their lessons with us. Even if, however, they purchase the same equipment, novices WILL make mistakes when they practice and if they are unable to control the resulting power, they’re likely to make the situation WORSE.

On the other hand, if you were a shop owner whose main goal is to sell EQUIPMENT, you would know (although might not admit it) that forcing students to use lesson time on detailed instruction and thorough PRACTICE of launch/landing procedures etc. provides VERY substantial incentive to the student to purchase THAT equipment. This is especially true if the student has NO CLUE about any pros and cons of said equipment as compared to others in the marketplace. Once the sale is made, IF the student realizes that there is a tad more to kiting than launching/landing while hopefully keeping the kite out of the power and decides to invest in more lessons, the lesson income is effectively gravy.

The point is that, in these “instructor should....” threads many posters seem to think that clients have unlimited funds and time as well as overlook the reality that MANY different variables are unavoidably involved.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


Last edited by RichardM on Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Safe student launch?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:37 pm 
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Buy a bigger shovel, you can move the same amount of sh** without so many keystrokes mr malibu.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Safe student launch?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:02 am 
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BWD wrote:
Buy a bigger shovel, you can move the same amount of sh** without so many keystrokes mr malibu.

Thanks for the tip. You may be correct, since shoveling shit is indisputably an area where you DO have extensive expertise.

However, as to kiting instruction, your considered and thoughtful personal attack provides confirmation that you've realized the error of your ways and I also can't help but note that your lack of any contrary evidence additionally provides confirmation that you are NOT an instructor - just someone who apparently wants to SOUND like one.

Incidentally, don't you want to criticize the tux ?

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Safe student launch?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:07 am 
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Naw, man, it becomes you.
And no, I'm no instructor.
Never claimed it.
After 10+ years kiting I can certainly see the errors of their ways though.


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 Post subject: Re: Safe student launch?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:18 am 
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BWD wrote:
Naw, man, it becomes you.
And no, I'm no instructor.
Never claimed it.
After 10+ years kiting I can certainly see the errors of their ways though.

Well, if it really turns you on, feel free to use it on your fakebook page.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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