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 Post subject: Re: Bridle wrap Airush Wave?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:21 pm 
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marlboroughman wrote:
I don't know why designers can not grasp the idea that for onshore conditions thus for majority of us the kite has to fly deep in the window turn axially and have that power on demand. Second I don't like bridles to begin with, a bridle with pulleys is non starter with me.


I agree that where the kite sits in the window is a topic well and truely open for discussion. The wave really is the best example of a vapor in this regard - sits back till you edge then moves forward, but you need to go to the lithium if you want more grunt.

What is interesting is that I was on the design team (perhaps even the instigator for the original vapor 1 project all those years ago) and I was like you - if I saw a pulley I would refuse to fly it. Lack of feedback, relaunch issues, wear issues... the list goes on.

When we got to the vapor 3, he made it with a 4 line bridle or 5 line direct option, and you know what - back to back testing, I preferred the kite on bridles and 4 line.. That was a really rough version of the bridle we have now. As far as practicality goes, all fixed...
Seriously, from an old timer who knows the development curve, go try a wave 9 in some gusty nasty conditions, then tell me the vapor I is better. The wave should not have been called wave.. It works way too well as a multidiscipline kite.

Also - if it's not gusty and nasty, go try a razor, as this is where the pinnacle is...
..and, if I thought we needed another vapor 1, then I would tell them, but honestly - they don't....
5 line can not give the sweet spot range that 4 line bridle can.


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 Post subject: Re: Bridle wrap Airush Wave?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:35 am 
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Vapors with their deep profiles were not handling gusty winds all that well and with my weight 75kg I would actually prefer a little less profile. When I was teaching people on them I put the bridles on and 8.5 felt great with the bridle but larger sizes I still preferred fifth line. But as soon as I finished teaching I would go back to fifth with all sizes for the convenience of self landing. I might get the 7m Wave at the end of the year to replace Naish Park but for the 9m I really need to find something that flies like Vapor because I use that size to do all and it better performs in all departments.


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 Post subject: Re: Bridle wrap Airush Wave?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:31 am 
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marlboroughman wrote:
Vapors with their deep profiles were not handling gusty winds all that well and with my weight 75kg I would actually prefer a little less profile. When I was teaching people on them I put the bridles on and 8.5 felt great with the bridle but larger sizes I still preferred fifth line. But as soon as I finished teaching I would go back to fifth with all sizes for the convenience of self landing. I might get the 7m Wave at the end of the year to replace Naish Park but for the 9m I really need to find something that flies like Vapor because I use that size to do all and it better performs in all departments.


The 8.5 was the Vapor III, and that was a kite I didn't like, with 5 lines or 4.. The original Vapor V1 10, was the best. The Vapor II was very similar just added a bit more weight which made it feel softer, the III's development was a victim of the handle pass era, and what they added in the ability to surge forward robbed it of all low end grunt..
The most interesting kite from Airush after that was the first lithium, but when the Wave 9 came it was Vapor 1 holy grail stuff all over again! You must try a 9, some way, some how.. They re engineered the 12 and 7 to take on more of the 9's characteristics, but in 9, like the Vapor, it's one of those kites that's more than the sum of it's parts.
The sweet spot is so massive that only the very edges of it's range are not perfectly balanced, and the thing handles exactly the same in 10 knots on a Slayer (it probably needs 2-3 knots more than the original VP1 10m) as it does in 30kts at the limit of your boards grip.
You mention performing well in all departments, that's the wave 9, not so much the 7, but for sure the 9. The thing boosts and redirects like you would not believe, you can even unhook the thing such is it's ability to surge forward under load, and at 75kg you are right in the perfect weight band for it's profile... It goes round corners with forward such speed, drive, ease, precision and tactility that it leaves the best of the Vapor's seriously wanting...


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 Post subject: Re: Bridle wrap Airush Wave?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:09 pm 
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MikeBirt wrote:
I agree that where the kite sits in the window is a topic well and truely open for discussion.

I agree, I am split on that issue for freeride kites. But as far onshore wave the discussion might start when we have the actual category. My guess is the discussion will be very short once people discover the product and benefits of the kite sitting deep for onshore wave. Majority of us almost never see half decent onshore conditions like clean onshore waves with side/on wind. Great Lakes Caribbean and even Cape Hatteras on a classic NE is wave coming from the same direction as the wind. So basically we are in the brake zone looking for a nice set popping out of all the crap. In that scenario you need a kite sitting deep ready to be turned giving us a bit of a kick in the ass to be able to catch the wave in a hurry. I am sure that once we get the product there will be no discussion after that.


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 Post subject: Re: Bridle wrap Airush Wave?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:21 pm 
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marlboroughman wrote:
MikeBirt wrote:
I agree that where the kite sits in the window is a topic well and truely open for discussion.

I agree, I am split on that issue for freeride kites. But as far onshore wave the discussion might start when we have the actual category. My guess is the discussion will be very short once people discover the product and benefits of the kite sitting deep for onshore wave. Majority of us almost never see half decent onshore conditions like clean onshore waves with side/on wind. Great Lakes Caribbean and even Cape Hatteras on a classic NE is wave coming from the same direction as the wind. So basically we are in the brake zone looking for a nice set popping out of all the crap. In that scenario you need a kite sitting deep ready to be turned giving us a bit of a kick in the ass to be able to catch the wave in a hurry. I am sure that once we get the product there will be no discussion after that.


mbman, I know many of us have different likings, and that is great.

But have you ever considered that YOU might be, maybe not "wrong", but at least not like most others prefer wave kites and boards ?

I also have very "distinct" likings regarding many things, and can be across the mainstream, I know - but in this case with both kites and boards I think the industry and almost every other poster in these threads, are spot on :thumb:

I most often ride very, or even full, onshore waves since start of the 1980 windsurfing, and since 2005 when kitesurfing (for us surfers around here) changed to waveriding mostly.


My take on what I think about waveriding and kites in regards to wind direction:

Sideoffshore - REALLY difficult, and you want a really forward flying depowerable kite, that wont pull you off the wave.

Sideshore - almost everything works, easy to ride with the kite and go vertical, both aggresive or with kite parked.
Kites sitting deep are good and easy to ride, kites sitting forward has other advantages when you master these.

Onshore (well, sideonshore) - kites flying forward in the window by far preferred !
In order to go vertical, you need a kite that can fly far forward and be depowered max - so you get full freedom to ride "up" the wave.
If you had a kite that was sitting deep, it would pull in the wrong direction and not let you go up "against" the wind up the waveface towards the cutback :(

And I am certain we can all agree, that going "vertical" and in as full arcs as possible is what it is all about, the ultimate goal - and not just "wiggle" downwind as grandma and grandpa's :naughty:


A kite that pulls too much when turned, is also a nightmare - BOTH in sideshore and onshore conditions IMO.
For onshore you can easily have a forward sitting kite pull instantly, when it is flown horisontal :wink2:
And IF you want it to sit deep (as we often do when sideshore conditions), you simply pull the bar and balance the kite.
In other words - you can position such a kite EXACTLY where you want it, both deep in the window, or far forward - no constraints here :D
But requires a better backbone kite flying skill indeed - which many are not capable of, till they get more years of experience.

In light wind (10m2 and up - but NOT for waveriding in general - just fooling around), it is another ballgame - but here C kites that delivers a lot of power when turned, can actually be beneficial, yes.

But for normal waveconditions, no matter HOW onshore, a kite sitting deep thus pulling stable and more and not able to go as high, is mostly not desired :(

Some just LOVE kites sitting deep - personal preferences, but IMO that is a general preference and NOT for onshore waveriding specifically, on the contrary :-?


Stable kites, good drift - yes, we all agree.
But having a deep sitting kite not fast upwind in onshore ? No way :cry:
(and bridles or not got absolutely nothing to do with this issue IMO, personal preference and should be left out of the discussion)


I also noticed you can not understand why all brands (and EVERYBODY) do not offer and like 3 strap waveboards ?
Again, have you ever thought that it could be you who had a very specific preference ?

Same thing as in this thread IMO, no offense, but looks like it :rollgrin:

Wave kites and waveboards are definitely NOT designed for "perfect" conditions, I completely disagree with you here.
The kite (and board) evolution and designs are aimed at - the masses, as this is what we like the most, and what makes the best sale, a win-win for everybody almost :naughty:
And only very few "extreme" designs.

I am not "after" you mbman, just stating that there COULD be a reason why most others love the current wave kites from most brands - individual preferences left out of course...

8) Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Bridle wrap Airush Wave?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:34 pm 
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Going back to the subject of the thread - I have flown Airush my whole 4 years of kiting and the bridals just don't seem to grab the wing tips like some other brands. I have never had a bridal wrap once and I fly and launch in the Columbia Gorge with gusty, holey wind and launches.


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 Post subject: Re: Bridle wrap Airush Wave?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:26 am 
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I don't know how you ride man but for me once I get the speed down the wave I go back up the wave with the kite up no problem off the lip no problem and the deep flying kite has a better angle to drift, the forward flying kite wants to fall off the sky and has no steering in case you need it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bridle wrap Airush Wave?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:41 am 
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My kite sits quite forward in the window and our wind tends to be side to side on in Perth, Western Australia.

The one thing I really like is how well my kite sits foward, I can use my 7m on a floaty surfboard in about 18knots or so at 86kg and I get the same if not better perfomance out of it than my 9m (different brand) due to how fast it turnings and generates power and how light it is (3 strut 5 liner). The kite drifts and recovers realy well because it is light and balanced (wide wingtips similar to the wave).

Attachment:
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The kite was originally based on the last of the Wipika Matrix (the one with rounded wingtips,my kite was designed in 2007 and was / still is a great performer, pity the company has clopsed shop.

I have just bought a used 5m which I tried in around 24 to 26knots and really had fun, it turned really well (turn for turnkiting) and drifted great when shooting down the line. I was really impressed how well it performed, the only thing is I did not pump it up hard enough or the wind was a bit too light for my weight as the wingtip kept folding under load (I know I did not pump it hard enough but also unsure if it would have helped)



I've tried and the 9m Wave and thorughly einjoyed it, such a forgiving kite - the only thing i found was the the pulleys did introduce a small delay in turning but saying that I think the pulleys helped in the forgiveness in the kite (I placed the kite behind me while going down the line and it still followed me). Funny thing is I onced demoed the Vapor 1 or 2, I think it was the 1 but cant recall and even though it was my first season I really enjoyed that kite. I suppose becase the are from similar platforms.

The only downside that I find with Airuh kites is their price but they are really well built kites but sadly unafordable for me.

Cheers
Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Bridle wrap Airush Wave?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:23 am 
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marlboroughman wrote:
once people discover the product and benefits of the kite sitting deep for onshore wave.


Peter_Frank wrote:
Onshore (well, sideonshore) - kites flying forward in the window by far preferred !


The fact is, the more you pull on the kite, the further forward it sits in the window, so whether it sits forward or back is pretty unique point of view to everyone holding the end of the bar. Light or heavy, how sticky the board is, how much beef they give it in the turn, how long their lines are, how many beers they drank the night before... it all has it's effect on where the kite sits.

There's no right answer, and as to immediate response to turning input, the turning response from light loading to full turn is very immediate for me. Infact, in the best onshore conditions I ride I use the VX which sits massively far forward - lets me keep speed an power right in the pocket without getting dragged out in the flats. That said I do kite with power and straps so I could not imagine it would be anything but.

Conversely, some of my good friends can only use the Lithium - not even the wave gives them enough power.. They are heavy and definitely kite without their tyres pumped up, but then the'd probably say that I throw the kite around like a mentalist....

Having run demo's for a long time now it's good fun trying to pigeon hole people, but I often get it wrong, testing with an open mind is key :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Bridle wrap Airush Wave?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:10 pm 
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It all depends what you want to do in onshore conditions.
Forward flying kite
1 You want to just slide down the wave back side
2 the same front side
3 You want to work the kite back and forth like side, side off conditions you have to switch from toe to heal aggressively so riding front side to back side with wide swings of a kite
Now let say you want to emulate the side, side off conditions up and down wave riding in onshore conditions. The difference is when they ride in Hawaii with the kite forward they ride either up or down the wave. In onshore you ride parallel to the wave so if you want to ride straight up and down the wave you need different kite and different technique to accomplish this kind of riding.
Deep flying kite up and down wave riding onshore conditions
You turn the kite and get extra speed on those slow moving waves, move the kite slightly back of twelve while you riding straight down, turn it back forward gently and bottom turn as it goes trough 12, with the kite hanging slightly forward of 12 climb the wave and turn sharply and repeat everything all over again. If you ever loose the momentum loop the kite.
There you have it you are riding onshore shit like it was Hawaii but you need a different kite.


Last edited by marlboroughman on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:30 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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