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 Post subject: Re: Line break while snowkite gliding?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:22 pm 
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Location: Westminster Colorado
is a great topic - I am bad about not walking/inspecting my lines frequently enough. Been snow/land and H2O kiting for 2 years and paragliding for 7. PG I have snapped several lines to varying degrees and areas resulting in not one iota of concern. The bridling is massive in comparison to our 4/5 line powerkites, are much shorter and essentially go all the way to the harness. A line failure is usually of little to no consequence. Also altitude is a friend pg and frequently doing nothing is the best course (a moderate wing by design will resolve itself if it collapses). Close to the ground is best with little to no steering inputs.

With kiting I rarely jump higher then I am willing to fall since I am a total wuss and still working with 100% opposite muscle memory once off the deck of pg (redirects/loops) - but regardless this encourages me to look at my lines more frequently. At some point I'll be airborne either by design or conditions that make a line failure have serious consequences.


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 Post subject: Re: Line break while snowkite gliding?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:56 pm 
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As a guy who can survive flying a PG in the Denver aria ; i'm gonna assume that
you know what can kill you, ( that place you fly is kinda for the Big-Boys) !!

SO , what do ya think on this :
the guys who fly water-kites and do gliding, are gonna start dieing, when they
figure out how to Fly UP the side of a mountain, instead of just jumping off the top
after they got pulled up it. Right now, i mostly see moderately stable air, in the videos
they post ; so the danger and stress is low.

Tell our readers how much stress you encounter on your PG, during a normal
day of flying in the Rockies !!

Do you know a guy nick-named Sparkie ? He lives at the base of the mountains, near
I-70, and flies PG's and HG's a LOT ? First name Allen.

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Line break while snowkite gliding?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:01 pm 
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Location: Westminster Colorado
Bille - not sure if you are just bantering or missing my point or think I somehow imply paragliding is safer then kiting. I was simply saying that a line failure on a pg is not typically as catastrophic to control/flight and more importantly rate of descent as it is on a power kite. Previous posts asked specifically about how or why lines on pg differs, whether it be line or specifics of flight dynamic - so I tried to answer this. My takeaway; I personally know that I should inspect my kite lines more frequently then I do as it is good practice for staying as safe as possible...regardless of relevance to paragliding. Yeah - I completely agree that almost all glides with a powerkite are done with true skill and in good smooth air and are statistically not all that dangerous since stresses are low.... however It was on a kite loop in said smooth air when the failure occurred on the youtube clip....it was low line stress until it wasn't. Regardless of the situation a power kite line failure drastically reduces options compared to pg...but sure - pg has other inherent risks.

FWIW paragliding is not initiated by jumping off a mtn and in conditions I look to fly in, my own wing choice and flying style it is not the least bit adrenaline based...to me far less so then kiting...but yeah - well aware of what can kill me since you asked....I don't know Sparky but sounds familiar.

Extrapolating out that I somehow imply that fellow kiters whom are gliding or throwing down huge tricks are going to start dieing from line failures or other situations I say this....get a grip. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Line break while snowkite gliding?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:46 pm 
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FrontRangeJeff wrote:
... Yeah - I completely agree that almost all glides with a powerkite are done with true skill and in good smooth air and are statistically not all that dangerous since stresses are low.... however It was on a kite loop in said smooth air when the failure occurred on the youtube clip....it was low line stress until it wasn't. Regardless of the situation a power kite line failure drastically reduces options compared to pg...but sure - pg has other inherent risks.
...


YES, the guys that glide with water kites, seam to know what there doing
AND
there doing it in smooth air.

I think
that : " other inherent risks, on a PG", that your talking about, is attributed mostly
to the air that a PG is usually flying in. Typically a PG pilot that's bin at it a while, will
not be flying in smooth conditions and flying Down the hill. Sled-rides get OLD
real fast, and i for one , wouldn't bother setting up the equipment to do one, unless
it was some place like Yosemite.

MY Point is :
as soon as the guys who do gliding with water-kites ; figure out how to use ridge-lift
to FLY the top of there hill, there RISK is gonna go up exponentially from what
it is now, and that's when we'll start seeing people get Hurt Bad.

Even the little hill in Vegas, which is only 300ft high ; we start about 1/3 the way
up and soar to the top. The stresses on the equipment go up significantly when
your utilizing the lift in that way. Once you clear the top, then you can use the thermals
to go literally Thousands of feet Up ! North side of point of the Mt. in Utah is flown
the same way, (start low and Bench Up to higher elevation of the larger hill behind).
I am saying that Eventually the people who currently Glide on a water kite ; there gonna
want to start using the up-drafts a lot differently than they do now, and that's when
the statistics are gonna change. The reason why is that in a 45 degrees turn,the load factor
is (+1.41 X the G's) and at 60 degrees angle of bank the load factor is doubled, +2 G, and you
will feel twice as heavy.
 So if your actually turning in LIFT the G factor increases Dramatically ;
so
what happens if you fly Out of the lift, (in that bank-angle), then fly back into the lift ,??

FrontRangeJeff wrote:
...

FWIW paragliding is not initiated by jumping off a mtn and in conditions I look to fly in, my own wing choice and flying style it is not the least bit adrenaline based...to me far less so then kiting...but yeah - well aware of what can kill me since you asked....I don't know Sparky but sounds familiar.

...


We are Quite different on that one .

When i'm thermaling up the spine of the Billboard to reach the top of the 3400ft vertical
at Crestline ; typically i'm within 50 to 200ft of the ground on my
way up the spine. Each turn could result in a life-flight helicopter ride, if done wrong,
because i'm well below the reserve parachute safe opening window ; so i absolutely
do use a bit of adrenaline !!

I NEVER turn the adrenaline down, until i got at Least 400 to 500ft of altitude above the ground
and unless i got about 1000ft above the ground level, i won't relax much either. I'm Not a
very lucky person, so i take it sorta serious.

Bille

Ps:
* Out of curiosity, when's the last time you got a partial collapse on the wing
of your PG ; and how much altitude above the ground did you have ? I'm about to
ask the same question to Sparkie, who flies PG's in the same aria as you. What will
change, is the wind-conditions and time of day for sun intensity that you two fly in.

**And second , this is Sparkies PG, i borrowed it for a flight at Torry-Pines Calif ; ever
see it, because he flies it a LOT near Denver ?


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 Post subject: Re: Line break while snowkite gliding?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:32 pm 
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Location: Westminster Colorado
Hey Bille,
Didn't realize you were dual sport. Misread your questions/statements as meaning paragliding being deadly while kiting is totally safe :lol: I assume Sparkie flies mostly Lookout? I didn't fly Lookout last year at all due to kiting so much...and an overall drop in my enthusiasm for pg but I have flown there a lot in the past and that place can absolutely be sketchy but also awesome - sometimes on the same flight. Have had great and terrible flights there... to cloud base in moments or close calls. I am sure we know common people-just can't place sparkies face. Since I don't fly all that much any more I am more these days only flying on quite days at sites that have the fewest opportunities to get into trouble. I do my best to not have a false sense of security or complacency - or vast amounts of rust/fear....a flight from an easy walk up site on an anticipated sled ride can be just as deadly as a flight along a spine scratching for the necessary first thermal going wrong. My flying efficiency has dropped and I don't fly enough to get better but when I go I enjoy it.

Last time a major collapse - surprise-at Lookout....dropped for what felt like an eternity and it was an absolute sphincter clincher-almost chucked the reserve but decided my best chance was observing the wing and prepare for the impending surge - it was the right call. It was a more south day/took off from south launch and got in a bit of rotor I believe. My buddy also had a collapse just as serious. We fortunately landed/bagged up only to see some whacko tandem clown taking cash from his passenger right after they finished watching our flights...no offense but it is my opinion that pg has a high percentage of imbalanced people.

It is always tough to have debates about safety - especially comparing pg to kiting because so much of it is based purely upon how the kiter and pilot intend to ride/fly. Landing on a damned cholla cactus in Phoenix while paragliding SUCKED :angryfire: ....and certainly a serious fiasco on pg can be way worse then imaginable but I have had more injuries kiting-but even those are just bumps. Everything is dangerous - however nobody in the end is getting outta here alive.

Sorry for the book


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 Post subject: Re: Line break while snowkite gliding?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:55 pm
Posts: 12
I would argue against the logic that the stresses on gear go up much more whether flying in ridge lift, smooth air, thermals, or whatever. Stresses on gear are more pronounced by things like sand and sun exposure.

I think kiters who want to fly off mountains should understand and consider the fact that we are all pioneers in a new form of aviation. Sounds kind of cool until you start looking at the death tolls from the early days of hang/para gliding, powered flight, balloons, etc. The leading edge takes the hardest hits.

Maybe we will be different. In any case I think most folks who are gliding understand the risks involved.

Matt D


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 Post subject: Re: Line break while snowkite gliding?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:13 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:24 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Utah ish
Bille wrote:
FrontRangeJeff wrote:
... Yeah - I completely agree that almost all glides with a powerkite are done with true skill and in good smooth air and are statistically not all that dangerous since stresses are low.... however It was on a kite loop in said smooth air when the failure occurred on the youtube clip....it was low line stress until it wasn't. Regardless of the situation a power kite line failure drastically reduces options compared to pg...but sure - pg has other inherent risks.
...


YES, the guys that glide with water kites, seam to know what there doing
AND
there doing it in smooth air.

I think
that : " other inherent risks, on a PG", that your talking about, is attributed mostly
to the air that a PG is usually flying in. Typically a PG pilot that's bin at it a while, will
not be flying in smooth conditions and flying Down the hill. Sled-rides get OLD
real fast, and i for one , wouldn't bother setting up the equipment to do one, unless
it was some place like Yosemite.

MY Point is :
as soon as the guys who do gliding with water-kites ; figure out how to use ridge-lift
to FLY the top of there hill, there RISK is gonna go up exponentially from what
it is now, and that's when we'll start seeing people get Hurt Bad.

Even the little hill in Vegas, which is only 300ft high ; we start about 1/3 the way
up and soar to the top. The stresses on the equipment go up significantly when
your utilizing the lift in that way. Once you clear the top, then you can use the thermals
to go literally Thousands of feet Up ! North side of point of the Mt. in Utah is flown
the same way, (start low and Bench Up to higher elevation of the larger hill behind).
I am saying that Eventually the people who currently Glide on a water kite ; there gonna
want to start using the up-drafts a lot differently than they do now, and that's when
the statistics are gonna change. The reason why is that in a 45 degrees turn,the load factor
is (+1.41 X the G's) and at 60 degrees angle of bank the load factor is doubled, +2 G, and you
will feel twice as heavy.
 So if your actually turning in LIFT the G factor increases Dramatically ;
so
what happens if you fly Out of the lift, (in that bank-angle), then fly back into the lift ,??

FrontRangeJeff wrote:
...

FWIW paragliding is not initiated by jumping off a mtn and in conditions I look to fly in, my own wing choice and flying style it is not the least bit adrenaline based...to me far less so then kiting...but yeah - well aware of what can kill me since you asked....I don't know Sparky but sounds familiar.

...


We are Quite different on that one .

When i'm thermaling up the spine of the Billboard to reach the top of the 3400ft vertical
at Crestline ; typically i'm within 50 to 200ft of the ground on my
way up the spine. Each turn could result in a life-flight helicopter ride, if done wrong,
because i'm well below the reserve parachute safe opening window ; so i absolutely
do use a bit of adrenaline !!

I NEVER turn the adrenaline down, until i got at Least 400 to 500ft of altitude above the ground
and unless i got about 1000ft above the ground level, i won't relax much either. I'm Not a
very lucky person, so i take it sorta serious.

Bille

Ps:
* Out of curiosity, when's the last time you got a partial collapse on the wing
of your PG ; and how much altitude above the ground did you have ? I'm about to
ask the same question to Sparkie, who flies PG's in the same aria as you. What will
change, is the wind-conditions and time of day for sun intensity that you two fly in.

**And second , this is Sparkies PG, i borrowed it for a flight at Torry-Pines Calif ; ever
see it, because he flies it a LOT near Denver ?



All the questions you are asking have answers and I know them... Based on experience gliding in incredibly bumpy air, and using ridge lift to climb, oh and I enter and exit the lifting band all the time... With massive swing and wing overs that move me 20-30 meter under the kite. And then there is the ridge soaring, and climbing with kite loops, but it may only be a few of us..ridge soaring and only me that climbs with loops..

Lots of bullshit guesses about things that may happen, when all this stuff does.

Hi Matty D. These are some awesome paraglider pilots I would be careful, they "know everything". Well Billie the shit talking know nothing thinks he does. Oh no what's going to happen when the air isn't smooth or we climb with them....oh nooo.. The horror...


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 Post subject: Re: Line break while snowkite gliding?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:25 pm 
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Billy B. wrote:
...


All the questions you are asking have answers and I know them... Based on experience gliding in incredibly bumpy air, and using ridge lift to climb, oh and I enter and exit the lifting band all the time... With massive swing and wing overs that move me 20-30 meter under the kite. And then there is the ridge soaring, and climbing with kite loops, but it may only be a few of us..ridge soaring and only me that climbs with loops..
.



It kinda sounds like you Want people to copy what your Mouth is Talking ; if they do
there eventually gonna get Hurt, because there Luck , will NOT hold out long !!


Most Anyone can get instruction on a PG, and do what you describe on it, with
a relative degree of safety, (all things considered, because it is a high-risk sport)
but a PG is built to handle the abuse and a water kite is NOT.


Bring your Stock water kite to Villa Grove in Aug ; i got a , ($--grand) that says you won't
be gliding "With" me, or anywhere even "Near" me on that thing of yours. I'll ditch
my Ridgid-wing for a day, and borrow a PG ; just to make things more fair.
I'll want someone else to hold our Bet though ; because Your gonna be Dead
if you Try to follow me , and i Ain't just Joking.
===========================================================

Staying On-topic, I replied in a previous post, that as long as the guys keep there
gliding with water kites, confined to Low altitude, and there doing it in Clean air,
then there odds of staying out of the ER , are fairly Good. If you Want to go higher
and use lift for soaring ; then get equipment more suited for that environment (.)

Bille

REALITY CHECK
this is Me, learning about Gravity in the mid 80's .
I ain't shitting Ya people , it Really Sucks when things Fuck-up !!!!
I backed-off a bit ; but i still fly those things.


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 Post subject: Re: Line break while snowkite gliding?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:03 pm 
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Bille wrote:
Billy B. wrote:
...


All the questions you are asking have answers and I know them... Based on experience gliding in incredibly bumpy air, and using ridge lift to climb, oh and I enter and exit the lifting band all the time... With massive swing and wing overs that move me 20-30 meter under the kite. And then there is the ridge soaring, and climbing with kite loops, but it may only be a few of us..ridge soaring and only me that climbs with loops..
.



It kinda sounds like you Want people to copy what your Mouth is Talking ; if they do
there eventually gonna get Hurt, because there Luck , will NOT hold out long !!


Most Anyone can get instruction on a PG, and do what you describe on it, with
a relative degree of safety, (all things considered, because it is a high-risk sport)
but a PG is built to handle the abuse and a water kite is NOT.


Bring your Stock water kite to Villa Grove in Aug ; i got a , ($--grand) that says you won't
be gliding "With" me, or anywhere even "Near" me on that thing of yours. I'll ditch
my Ridgid-wing for a day, and borrow a PG ; just to make things more fair.
I'll want someone else to hold our Bet though ; because Your gonna be Dead
if you Try to follow me , and i Ain't just Joking.
===========================================================

Staying On-topic, I replied in a previous post, that as long as the guys keep there
gliding with water kites, confined to Low altitude, and there doing it in Clean air,
then there odds of staying out of the ER , are fairly Good. If you Want to go higher
and use lift for soaring ; then get equipment more suited for that environment (.)

Bille

REALITY CHECK
this is Me, learning about Gravity in the mid 80's .
I ain't shitting Ya people , it Really Sucks when things Fuck-up !!!!
I backed-off a bit ; but i still fly those things.


Reality Check... How many flying hours do you have gliding with a kite ?



Your useless drivel is more damaging then anything "my mouth is talking"..

So you have now issued me two challanges. Come and race a buggy, and now come and try and out fly a paraglider with a kite.

How about you drive to a hill and learn to glide. Then maybe you can contribute based on experience, intill then you are just a want to be (POSER) contributing useless and incorrect information. Again...just like in every thread you ruin with bullshit guessing based on your awesome background of crashing.

Even a picture of you crashing to prove your inability to even fly the shit you claim to be a expert at safely...

I wanna post a picture if me training a dog here. I want to post a usless picture of me doing a different sport then we are talking about. Maybe me speedflying or some thing..

It is a good thing a kiter with no experience on the topic is giving saftey advice, sarcasm.

Again under a kite I can ridge soar, hover, climb, and glide. I have done over ten kiteloops while airborn and in the lifting band. I throw mega loops over a hundred feet high. I started flying with the kite in 2006. People are out there trying to copy the shit I do because it is fucking awesome. And yes someone is going to get hurt because it is fucking hard and takes balls. Just like the elite level of every extreme sport.


Last edited by Billy B. on Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Line break while snowkite gliding?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:48 pm 
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Billy B it would be sad if you died, don't glide angry. If there's one place you don't want to show how large your balls are, it's 200 feet up in the air.

Also post some more videos if you got them. I want to see those loops.


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