*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:26 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 478
ronnie wrote:
Sailing is boring enough to watch in the Olympics already, so their interest in kiteboarding was to bring something more exciting.

I only do not agree with above. All is a matter of presentation.

What happened during A'sC last year was amazing to watch by spectators ashore (in the park) and first of all for the rest of world watching it live on YouTube. Please note that AC34 did not race of some strange courses. It was classic upwind/downwind course.
Do you remember London 2012 sailings? In my mind, thanks to trackers and computerised graphics on a live coverage, it was very interesting and clear for Smiths.
Now combine two events. Imagine kites in national colours, racers competing in winds 5-35kts on sailing spaceships called foilboards. That's my dream...

What might be more spectacular in the sailing?
Kitecross? Windsurfers tried and failed quickly. Funny to watch but not too much glory behind.
Kiteslalom? Good luck but this is not for the present racers. Can't imagine Johny, Blaszko, Maks, Maxim, Erwin.... enjoying a slalom board instead a race one.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:37 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:52 am
Posts: 227
Location: Australia
Would agree with Ronnie that the powers that be looking for a new sailing event to make it into the Olympics would be thinking it needs to be something different that what sailing already is.
I reckon though it will be some form of foiling as it ticks the box for a light wind option available.

Although I like sailing as a participation sport, I watched a best of sailing fails the other day and it was no where near exciting as watching other sports fails, but it didn't have any kite boarding crashes in it :o

Just curious, have any of the guys on this thread calling the end of the formula class actually competed in more than 1 - 100 or 200 point KBR event in the last 12 months ?
(More than 1 event will mean you have been more committed to racing than just a casual racer and happened to have a big event near your home town that was easy to get to).


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:40 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 3031
BraCuru wrote:
ronnie wrote:
Sailing is boring enough to watch in the Olympics already, so their interest in kiteboarding was to bring something more exciting.

I only do not agree with above. All is a matter of presentation.

What happened during A'sC last year was amazing to watch by spectators ashore (in the park) and first of all for the rest of world watching it live on YouTube. Please note that AC34 did not race of some strange courses. It was classic upwind/downwind course.
Do you remember London 2012 sailings? In my mind, thanks to trackers and computerised graphics on a live coverage, it was very interesting and clear for Smiths.
Now combine two events. Imagine kites in national colours, racers competing in winds 5-35kts on sailing spaceships called foilboards. That's my dream...

What might be more spectacular in the sailing?
Kitecross? Windsurfers tried and failed quickly. Funny to watch but not too much glory behind.
Kiteslalom? Good luck but this is not for the present racers. Can't imagine Johny, Blaszko, Maks, Maxim, Erwin.... enjoying a slalom board instead a race one.


From what I read regarding what the Olympic committee wanted, it wasn't just a matter of presentation. They want kitesurfing to be almost an urban sports type of class.

I think kite racing on raceboards or foilboards could be better than any of the current sailing classes at the Olympics - especially if they had live action from cameras on the kiters and kites. One problem is to get the kite and kiter in the same shot. That is one area where the other sailing classes have an advantage.

As a spectator sport, I don't think foil racing will be as exciting to look at as the raceboards. It has novelty value, which would help at the start, but gliding serenely through a race isn't going to keep the man in the street watching the race.
Are Moths going to become an Olympic class?

Foilboarding is elegant and serene - stylish even - but once you get used to seeing it, its not going to look exciting.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:28 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 478
wdric wrote:
Just curious, have any of the guys on this thread calling the end of the formula class actually competed in more than 1 - 100 or 200 point KBR event in the last 12 months ?

Not me.
Question. Do we need to be the world class riders to see a problem in the sport?
On other end the top class riders got own closed group on the FB. They rather do not want/like to participate in a public forum.
I think that most of posters here proved to be a core of the sport. Would you agree that without guys like us the racing has no chance to survive? Who is going to buy raceboards then? For sure not sponsored riders. What is a point for manufacturers to invest in the development if nobody is going to buy their products? Without guys like us the racing will lead in the RSX direction. I do not say that is bad or good. I say it's going to be dead class. And without Olympic boost does not have big chances to survive.

ronnie wrote:
From what I read regarding what the Olympic committee wanted, it wasn't just a matter of presentation. They want kitesurfing to be almost an urban sports type of class.

And I read it as no go for the racing in the present form :(
Do you think that foil slalom would be an option appreciated by present racing fleet? I am not sure about it. Personally I do not like slalom at all (despite winning first Polish championship in 2012). Fun to spectators but not for riders in my mind.
Really wonder to see the IKA outcome.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:56 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 3031
BraCuru wrote:
wdric wrote:
Just curious, have any of the guys on this thread calling the end of the formula class actually competed in more than 1 - 100 or 200 point KBR event in the last 12 months ?

Not me.
Question. Do we need to be the world class riders to see a problem in the sport?
On other end the top class riders got own closed group on the FB. They rather do not want/like to participate in a public forum.
I think that most of posters here proved to be a core of the sport. Would you agree that without guys like us the racing has no chance to survive? Who is going to buy raceboards then? For sure not sponsored riders. What is a point for manufacturers to invest in the development if nobody is going to buy their products? Without guys like us the racing will lead in the RSX direction. I do not say that is bad or good. I say it's going to be dead class. And without Olympic boost does not have big chances to survive.

ronnie wrote:
From what I read regarding what the Olympic committee wanted, it wasn't just a matter of presentation. They want kitesurfing to be almost an urban sports type of class.

And I read it as no go for the racing in the present form :(
Do you think that foil slalom would be an option appreciated by present racing fleet? I am not sure about it. Personally I do not like slalom at all (despite winning first Polish championship in 2012). Fun to spectators but not for riders in my mind.
Really wonder to see the IKA outcome.


I don't think that slalom suits foils, and actually probably suits twintips the best (maybe with kites on 20m lines).
The most successful competition class in windsurfing is slalom and I think that is partly because its the most relevant to what most windsurfers do. It also works in very little wind and is a good spectator sport. Its not in the Olympics. Instead the Olympics has a big board you can get round a course in zero wind by pumping the sail.

To me, foils look best when they are on the water with other types of craft. Then you can see the speed and the apparent ease with which the foil flies past everything else.

I think foils look super impressive and would watch a foil race, but I think the Olympics is now an entertainment show and to get in, kitesurfing has to look good to a big audience and have participation in a lot of countries. At the moment foiling is San Francisco versus France.
In some ways its too early for kiteboarding as there normally needs to be a racing formula established around the world before it can get into the Olympics.

Getting back on topic. A few years back Chip Wasson was racing a foil against the raceboards and the downwind was too much of a weakness and the raceboards won. Now foils and foilers have progressed a lot and raceboards have plateaued. The design of the raceboard has been stopped.

It may be that a much faster raceboard could be developed using J foils on each rail and a tail foil, with the board having a wing in ground effect shape so that it generally was flying just above the surface, but level?

That's one of the most interesting things about kiteboarding to me - the future potential could maybe go so far in so many directions. We may not yet be near where it ends up.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:02 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:52 am
Posts: 227
Location: Australia
BraCuru wrote:
wdric wrote:
Just curious, have any of the guys on this thread calling the end of the formula class actually competed in more than 1 - 100 or 200 point KBR event in the last 12 months ?

Not me.
Question. Do we need to be the world class riders to see a problem in the sport?


On a public forum you never know who is who and if all the nay sayers are people who are already not regularly racing then the sport is not at a loss for them not competing and maybe all the current regular riders will still keep at it.

BraCuru wrote:
On other end the top class riders got own closed group on the FB. They rather do not want/like to participate in a public forum.

Not all of them :wink:


http://www.registrations.deltalloydregatta.org/
I think this is some sort of fairly prestigious regatta on the world circuit for Olympic classes with very limited entry, but as an indication of the enthusiasm in our sport when compared to other sailing classes kiteboarding is current the only sailing class that is full :thumb:


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:41 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:49 am
Posts: 1170
Location: shallow sea
Quote:
Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?

for me they are both dead, but they just don't know it yet. F70 had a short life and foilboards are born dead.
at my place there are about 6 to 8 serious guys who are racing more or less regularly. few of them participate in european level occasionally. just of curiosity i have looked how much registered users are on the local forum, it was just under 1500.
well, given that some guys never participate in forums and the some of those who are registered never kite, this number seems close to correct number of the kiters here.
so number of real racers is under 1 percent, more like 0,5 percent of the total number of the kiters!

majority of kiters i see on the beach have one TT-board, two SLE-kites and one 3-2mm wetsuit! and we have only 5 month season during which you can use this wetsuit.
formula board is better for the heavier riders, but it is expensive, fragile like eggshell and very technical.
foilboard is quicker, but it is ugly and even more technical, fragile and expensive! plus, remember the beginners "shitting bird" stance? well it is new racer stance now!
you have much better chances promoting your brand with also heavily outnumbered C-kites than with race boars, formula or foil.

this year i ordered freeride-slalom-lowwind directional for full price although i had several bargain proposals on one year old formula70 boards.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:18 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 5790
Location: Denmark
eree wrote:
Quote:
Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?

Snip...
foilboard is quicker, but it is ugly and even more technical, fragile and expensive! plus, remember the beginners "shitting bird" stance? well it is new racer stance now!
you have much better chances promoting your brand with also heavily outnumbered C-kites than with race boars, formula or foil.

this year i ordered freeride-slalom-lowwind directional for full price although i had several bargain proposals on one year old formula70 boards.


You dont foil yourself I can see ?

"Shitting bird stance" ? That is what racers do, on formula70 raceboards, but on hydrofoils you have the most perfect upright relaxed stance :thumb:

Ugly ? Each to their own - I find hydrofoils by far the most aestetic beatiful creations I have ever seen (but being an aerodynamic specialist/engineer I might be prejudiced as I LOVE sleek perfect hydro or aerodynamic curves and forms - they are simply nirvana in perfection and beaty in my eyes)

And one thing is racing, where foils have killed formula 70 immediately it seems, but for the non racer (like me), the foil killed the freeride raceboard even faster :rollgrin:

And light wind is what more and more get attracted to the last years, so freerace and also second hand raceboards are used by the weekend warriors too now.

Foils are just so many steps more exciting to ride though, and everybody "wants to do it" !

Eventhough hard to get for money etc - so I agree with everything else you write, but NOT regarding stance where I think you are wrong, and also regarding what is appealing.

8) PF


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:47 pm 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:59 am
Posts: 179
What looks better? meh I'm too old to care that much anymore. Now I'm a kooky looking old guy on a foil with a helmet, life vest/impact jacket and a whistle. The kind of look I used to giggle at, but whatever. Bird poo stance is wrong for either a 70 or a foil anyway.

As for "who has the most points". I get the implication wdric, but those of us at the back of the fleet get to have an opinion too. I started racing last season at 39 with zero sailing race experience, I did one 50 point event last year and came second last for the regatta. Apparently that makes me 336th in the world for course racing, a claim I think make the current system a little open to ridicule and not particularly useful.
But back to the subject. One good thing about the 70 class dying is that we can get rid of the Olympics and the IKA. Neither of them seems to be helping us right now. As someone who loves high performance sailing and engineering I have only a passing interest in Olympic sailing. Besides some flash in the pan coverage what does it get us anyway? The number of Laser sailors or RS:X sailors isn't exactly growing because of people watching the Olympics. Actually maybe RS:X is because who in the world wants to sail one of them if they're not interested in going to the Olympics? The sailing I want to see are, International Moths, AC 72's, C Class, etc Zero of these have an Olympic regatta. I understand it's my view/interests but I'm most interested seeing and reading about classes that get around a course the fastest.
The IKA seems to think that kites and boards have reached some kind of design apex and restricting them is a good idea. The foilboards have shown that that was a little short sighted and that if you make a class rule so tight so soon that people will just want to start a different one when someone else comes along.
Roll on foilboards, roll on new kite development, roll on SfYC Thursday night races with an open class!


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Did Hydrofoils already kill the Formula 70?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:55 pm 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:59 am
Posts: 179
eree wrote:
[
well, given that some guys never participate in forums and the some of those who are registered never kite, this number seems close to correct number of the kiters here.
so number of real racers is under 1 percent, more like 0,5 percent of the total number of the kiters!


The Laser is probably one of the most sailed and raced boats in the world and it probably only makes up .5% of boats sales annually (no numbers to back that claim but there a a heck of a lot of sail boats sold every year if you count race and recreational boats). Measuring a classes success in terms of the total number of participants is probably more useful than as a % of total participants in a sport/recreation. I'm not assuming most people will give up their TT or surf board. The question is more like, out of the people currently interested in racing with kites, how many want to foil vs ride a Formula 70? And what will that do to participation numbers? If it splits the world wide fleet we're probably not looking great long term.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group