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 Post subject: Re: Liquid Force fun foil
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:16 pm
Posts: 383
Location: Kettle Point Ontario Canada
BWD yes you could buy tooling and material yourself for 1500-2000 no problem.
the problem is time to build them... even with molds it is still going to take 20-30 hours from start to stop. So just a round about figure 400 in material 300 in labour ( and that is only 10 bucks a hour) you are still at 700 with out any extra for molds, hydro, shop supplies, etc.

A alum mold can cost between 2000-10 000 depending on a lot of thing, and you need 4 of them if you want to do production. Then you need the right press with heat.

A alum. foil would take about 6 hours or more just to cnc if you do it out of raw stock with a high end machine, if you cast it . the process would take about 4 hours the time you pour it and cool it to pop it. Every cnc around here is 110+ /hr , Yes LF can do it over sea for next to nothing but the 40%-40%-40% rule will still take effect. Which is a kite world standard for most. 40% from brand to dist , 40% from dist to dealer, 40% from dealer to end customer. the 6 years of being a rep that is what it was.

I for one wish there was a lost cost foil 1000 mark would be great, just don't think it is possible with the way the world is right now at $1.40 a liter here in Canada and hydro and natural gas talking about going up 40% in the next 5 years. I want to get into the foil world myself , just don't have the cash to buy one. So yes I am going to build one or 10 in the near future, I have all the material here and my time is free for myself to build myself one.

just my 2 cents
terrie


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 Post subject: Re: Liquid Force fun foil
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:52 am
Posts: 217
Location: Australia
liquidforcekites wrote:
we are having blast trying all kinds of different configurations and materials..
as for the price..we will see!


Imagine how much more fun it would be in board shorts :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Liquid Force fun foil
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:16 am
Posts: 325
Location: Chile/Brasil
i would love to have an autoclave prepreg carbon foil but at+US$4000 gear no way i permit myself to purchase one.
the fact is this sport is made of 95% of average joes that enjoy their free time on weekends at the expense of some nagging at home,married ones at least!:lol:
there is racing equipment and there is weekend fun equipment.
My bet is that most would be looking for the second choice.
i dont need carbón wings or mast , a g10 plate or aluminum Works fine.
i dont understand the argument of going all crazy with high end materials when most of us are looking for affordable gear with easy of use performance.
i saw an new begginer airchair hydrofoil complete set in aluminum mast and wings and fiberglass board for US$900 dolars
how hard can it be to make some consetions to achive the same in kitehydrofoiling?
i recently had a conversation with one of the fórum guys helping me out to build my own.
i told him i wanted a faster mast less drag somewhere in the 16-17mm range .(my v1 is 25mm)
he did the math and it came out that the benefit of reducing was 1 knot gain at 15 knots in speed.
Do i really need that Knot to have more fun?
Does it justify going all out carbón and going crazy on specs?

i guess kiteboarding and kitehydrofoiling atracts to many OCDS :D


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 Post subject: Re: Liquid Force fun foil
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:59 am
Posts: 161
It's not the cost of carbon that's making the foils cost that much. One site says the 2013 cost is $22/kg so even a 5 kilo foil only has $100 worth. The is in tooling, labour, and mostly in making a bunch of them before you get it right. Now you need to recover those costs. Even then the kite world is tiny small so you'll only sell a few hundred a year if you get it totally right and people want to buy it. Making an aluminum or "low performance" (i.e. not "race") model won't change the cost much. Not shaping the wing isn't really a cost saving, espe A carbon fiber bike frame retails at around $1,000 and has a quarter the carbon and an order of magnitude more volume in sales so don't be expecting a niche thing like a foil to get "cheap". Also take a look at buying some other high performance sail boat like a moth or an A-Class cat, kites and foil become cheap in terms of $ per knot of VMG, like really really cheap.


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 Post subject: Re: Liquid Force fun foil
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:42 pm 
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Since labor and tooling are such a big part of the cost,
I think not foiling the wing must save production cost.
The question, in my mind, is "would anyone buy it?"
I think I would build a flat plate foil if I wanted one, it is not hard to cut plates of Al or G10.
When it proved too slow or got tweaked, what then?


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 Post subject: Re: Liquid Force fun foil
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:50 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:16 am
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Location: Chile/Brasil
Hawaiis showed us that simple flat plates and wodden struts work!!
profiling them with routers is simple enough but not cutting edge enough.
i


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 Post subject: Re: Liquid Force fun foil
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:57 pm 
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Location: Chile/Brasil
Bwd,
would this be enough elliptical edge for routing G10 plate?


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 Post subject: Re: Liquid Force fun foil
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:03 pm 
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I guess it would but I think I would use a disk sander (or similar), the router bit might get dull quickly and need sharpening or replacement.


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 Post subject: Re: Liquid Force fun foil
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:33 pm 
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Instead off removing material, I add epoxy to the edges of carbon fiber plates to make the front leading edge round, the trailing edge tapered.


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 Post subject: Re: Liquid Force fun foil
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 8:19 pm 
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You can see from the prices of Air Chair foil parts that aluminium parts can be expensive too.


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