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 Post subject: Re: Pea Island "OBX" (closed for Kiteboarding)
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 4:31 pm 
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SSK:

You’ve obviously put a lot of productive time and effort into this situation. It is neither easy nor fun finding this crap and trying to sort through it.

If no one has yet tried a “nice” approach to gaining cooperation, by all means try it. It could work and save untold amounts of miserable effort. You tend to catch more flies with honey (this assumes of course you don’t want to kill them).

Furthermore, it is distinctly possible that the ban was initiated because of some perceived or ACTUAL problem and perhaps kiters would be more likely to find a solution - in which case everyone gets happy AND you make some helpful friends.

Unfortunately, I’m too busy at the moment to be helpful. However, I’d like to thank those who have had some kind words (especially the words involving MONEY) and since this obviously illustrates Zepheros’ PR skills, I wouldn’t object if those who were nice enough to offer me some monetary incentive to instead donate it to him.

Since I didn’t have time to do more than glance at the above sections, I’ll just point out a few things I noticed.

["It looks like pretty broad authority.
it does not appear that way to me. "

This is possible. However, bear in mind that whoever wrote it is a LOT more likely to WANT to give that impression than the opposite.


" No where does it say encouraging non-wildlife recreation. "
Recreational uses such as, but not limited to, sightseeing, nature observation and photography, interpretive centers and exhibits, hunting and fishing, bathing, boating, camping, ice skating, picnicking, swimming, water skiing, and other similar activities may be permitted on national wildlife refuges. Kiting seems to be obe of the more compatible - especially if you give some thought as to how it could be tied to sightseeing, nature observation and photography,

NOTE: supposedly the kiting ban is a special reg- - (6) Special regulations for public use, access, and recreation are published in the daily issue of the Federal Register and may be codified in the Code of Federal Regulations. They shall be issued in compliance with procedures contained in the Departmental Manual.

check out some of the stuff that they theoretically were supposed to do in order to create the ban
see § 26.41

Have fun.

7/09/14 EDIT: I noticed that I improperly quoted SSK so that it is unclear which part of this post is his posting. Therefore, I have put his partial post in RED.

"Again I hate this rule it effects me. I am not trying to be a naysayer, but I think the chance of fighting it is slim. The chance of working with the refuge manager maybe better, there are provisions for that, and I am all for that.
But I just want to make sure people have some perspecitve. The conspiracty stuff is killing me. Bottom line, this is a wildlife refuge. Not a state park, not public land, not a National Park. You can read the the refuge objectives, and the objectives of the national refuge system. No where does it say encouraging non-wildlife recreation. I do not think this is some new Federal broadening of powers. The refuge was created in 1938 and I assume most of these rules have been in place since the creation of the National Refuge System.

I am not a lawyer, just a simple man reading the federal Law. 50 CFR Chapter I, Subchapter C - THE NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE SYSTEM
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/50/ ... bchapter-C

From all I can see the law clearly states they can create this rule and enforce it very easily. My interpretation of this is that entry into a refuge is not a right but may be permitted. Curtailing any non-recreational activity is at the descretion of the Refuge Manager. It looks like pretty broad authority. There is no discussion period, public notice, ... just post it. It may seem unfair and unjust, but it does not appear to be new or capricious.

My only point here is that (again a very simple man interpretation) the Federal law states they can do this, and unfortunately very easily. If you think the law protects your access to a national refuge, it does not appear that way to me.

The finer points of where you can actually kite and not kite, how they can fine you, can you challenge a ticket, what requirements they have to follow may be a different issue and could be challenged.
Quote:
Recreational uses such as, but not limited to, sightseeing, nature observation and photography, interpretive centers and exhibits, hunting and fishing, bathing, boating, camping, ice skating, picnicking, swimming, water skiing, and other similar activities may be permitted on national wildlife refuges. When such uses are permitted the public will be notified under the provisions of this subchapter C

§ 25.31 General provisions.
Whenever a particular public access, use or recreational activity of any type whatsoever, not otherwise expressly permitted under this subchapter, is permitted on a national wildlife refuge or where public access, use, or recreational or other activities previously permitted are curtailed, the public may be notified by any of the following methods, all of which supplement this subchapter C:
(a) Official signs posted conspicuously at appropriate intervals and locations;
(b) Special regulations issued under the provisions of § 26.33 of this subchapter C.
(c) Maps available in the office of the refuge manager, regional director, or area director, or
(d) Other appropriate methods which will give the public actual or constructive notice of the permitted or curtailed public access, use, or recreational activity.

§ 26.33 Special regulations.
(a) Special regulations shall be issued for public use, access, and recreation within certain individual national wildlife refuges where there is a need to amend, modify, relax or make more stringent the regulations contained in this subchapter C. The issued special regulations will supplement the provisions in this part 26.
(b) Special recreational use regulations may contain the following items:
(1) Recreational uses authorized.
(2) Seasons, period, or specific time of use.
(3) Description of areas open to recreation.
(4) Specific conditions or requirements.
(5) Other provisions.
(6) Special regulations for public use, access, and recreation are published in the daily issue of the Federal Register and may be codified in the Code of Federal Regulations. They shall be issued in compliance with procedures contained in the Departmental Manual.


§ 26.41 What is the process for determining if a use of a national wildlife refuge is a compatible use?
The Refuge Manager will not initiate or permit a new use of a national wildlife refuge or expand, renew, or extend an existing use of a national wildlife refuge, unless the Refuge Manager has determined that the use is a compatible use. This section provides guidelines for making compatibility determinations, and procedures for documenting compatibility determinations and for periodic review of compatibility determinations. We will usually complete compatibility determinations as part of the comprehensive conservation plan or step-down management plan process for individual uses, specific use programs, or groups of related uses described in the plan. We will make all compatibility determinations in writing.
(a) What information do we include in a compatibility determination? All compatibility determinations will include the following information:
(1) The proposed or existing use;
(2) The name of the national wildlife refuge;
(3) The authorities used to establish the national wildlife refuge;
(4) The purpose(s) of the national wildlife refuge;
(5) The National Wildlife Refuge System mission;
(6) The nature and extent of the use including the following:
(i) What is the use? Is the use a priority public use?;
(ii) Where would the use be conducted?;
(iii) When would the use be conducted?;
(iv) How would the use be conducted?; and
(v) Why is the use being proposed?.
(7) An analysis of costs for administering and managing each use;
(8) The anticipated impacts of the use on the national wildlife refuge's purposes and the National Wildlife Refuge System mission;
(9) The amount of opportunity for public review and comment provided;
(10) Whether the use is compatible or not compatible (does it or will it materially interfere with or detract from the fulfillment of the National Wildlife Refuge System mission or the purpose(s) of the national wildlife refuge);
(11) Stipulations necessary to ensure compatibility;
(12) A logical explanation describing how the proposed use would, or would not, materially interfere with or detract from the fulfillment of the National Wildlife Refuge System mission or the purpose(s) of the national wildlife refuge;
(13) The Refuge Manager's signature and date signed; and
(14) The Regional Chief's concurrence signature and date signed.
(15) The mandatory 10- or 15-year re-evaluation date.
(b) Making a use compatible through replacement of lost habitat values or other compensatory mitigation. We will not allow compensatory mitigation to make a proposed refuge use compatible, except by replacement of lost habitat values as provided in paragraph (c) of this section. If we cannot make the proposed use compatible with stipulations we cannot allow the use.
(c) Existing right-of-ways. We will not make a compatibility determination and will deny any request for maintenance of an existing right-of-way which will affect a unit of the National Wildlife Refuge System, unless: the design adopts appropriate measures to avoid resource impacts and includes provisions to ensure no net loss of habitat quantity and quality; restored or replacement areas identified in the design are afforded permanent protection as part of the national wildlife refuge or wetland management district affected by the maintenance; and all restoration work is completed by the applicant prior to any title transfer or recording of the easement, if applicable. Maintenance of an existing right-of-way includes minor expansion or minor realignment to meet safety standards.
(d) Termination of uses that are not compatible. When we determine an existing use is not compatible, we will expeditiously terminate or modify the use to make it compatible. Except with written authorization by the Director, this process of termination or modification will not exceed 6 months from the date that the compatibility determination is signed.
"

7/09/14 EDIT: NOTE: I added all the bolding to bring attention to the various sections which seem to be vulnerable to attack.


Last edited by RichardM on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pea Island "OBX" (closed for Kiteboarding)
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:12 am 
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Step 1. Launch at Mirlo Beach.
Step 2. Enjoy a long downwinder.
Step 3. Flag your kite or land it to your kiting buddy while standing in waist deep water at New Inlet.
Step 4. Wrap up your kite gear.
Step 5. Walk out of the water with all your gear.

Simply carrying kite gear in and out of the water is not against the rules, nor do they really care. They had a problem with a kite in power lines, so they don't want you flying a kite on their land. Keep it out in the water.


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 Post subject: Re: Pea Island "OBX" (closed for Kiteboarding)
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 10:57 am 
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gonewiththewind wrote:
Step 1. Launch at Mirlo Beach.
Step 2. Enjoy a long downwinder.
Step 3. Flag your kite or land it to your kiting buddy while standing in waist deep water at New Inlet.
Step 4. Wrap up your kite gear.
Step 5. Walk out of the water with all your gear.

Simply carrying kite gear in and out of the water is not against the rules, nor do they really care. They had a problem with a kite in power lines, so they don't want you flying a kite on their land. Keep it out in the water.

That makes sense and is easy to do. Agreed. Have given the same advice.

Doesn't coincide with interpretations that this restriction is for all property (land and water) controlled by the refuge...and doesn't make sense that two park rangers would go to Dimitri's house, show him YouTube videos as evidence, and then give him a written citation (which seems was just so he could post it online as a global warning). I'm sure he said to them, "what if I just land in the water?"
I want to be wrong on this one, though. I hope I am.

It'd be great that if by respecting the launching/landing guidance we were good.
It's also a nice ocean beach to kite from tho...


Last edited by CaptainArgh on Thu May 15, 2014 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pea Island "OBX" (closed for Kiteboarding)
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 11:57 am 
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Gonewiththewind,

I agree with what the captain said. A separate issue from the closure of Pea Island is the construction project at New Inlet. If you had read this thread from the beginning or had made a trip to Hatteras lately you would be aware of this.

They are spending 90 Million Dollars to cross what was once an inlet you could throw a stone across and is now dry sand.

There is no way anyone is going to be able to walk in from that run for the next two years without causing a problem. Depending on what the 3 mile bridge looks like when they finish access could be blocked forever. The shape of the construction site makes it look like the Ponds could be the next possible exit. As it is now they do not allow you near those Ponds other than to take pictures of birds from some of the berms.


Last edited by robg on Thu May 15, 2014 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pea Island "OBX" (closed for Kiteboarding)
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 12:03 pm 
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Quote:
Step 1. Launch at Mirlo Beach.
Step 2. Enjoy a long downwinder.
Step 3. Flag your kite or land it to your kiting buddy while standing in waist deep water at New Inlet.
Step 4. Wrap up your kite gear.
Step 5. Walk out of the water with all your gear.

Simply carrying kite gear in and out of the water is not against the rules, nor do they really care. They had a problem with a kite in power lines, so they don't want you flying a kite on their land. Keep it out in the water.

Unless they have changed their interpretation, that is not what we were told last year. They interpret it to be the refuge boundary out to the NPS sound boundary but not out to the presidential proclamation boundary. The refuge is defined by coordinates that includes significant portions of the sound. We're you told differently. If this is the case there is no issue, but unless you heard this from the refuge staff, and not some 20 year old Real worker I would not assume.
If you are suggesting this is something to discuss with the refuge manager as a mitigation, I agree. We specifically asked this last year and we were told it was not allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Pea Island "OBX" (closed for Kiteboarding)
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:43 pm 
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SSK wrote:
...If you are suggesting this is something to discuss with the refuge manager as a mitigation, I agree. ...

Yes!
Can someone who lives down there request a formal meeting or attend an already scheduled meeting?
The first pitch should be a very short positive talk with a goal of scheduling a follow-up detailed discussion of proposed options to manage access while respecting concerns.
A conversation with an on-site manager probably won't do it as his/her role there is just to convey the rules. It has to be in a setting where policy can be discussed.

Seems a kite rep would have to meet with the Alligator River folks as; "Pea Island National Wildlife Refuge is administered by the office and staff of Alligator River National Wildlife Refuge." Or possibly see if Coastal Wildlife Refuge Society, who already has a working relationship with the Alligator River folks is open to letting us use their group to communicate. It does not seem like access is part of their purpose though (generate funds, recruit volunteers), but they are a well established organization that must have regular meetings with the Refuge folks.

I'm only guessing on this, though. I suspect Dimitri or other local business owners know exactly who to talk to and when they meet.
Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Pea Island "OBX" (closed for Kiteboarding)
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 2:47 am 
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Okay, the weekend is over. I hope everyone had some great sessions! :thumb:
Let's do something about this Pea Island situation this week. At least start the ball rolling.

Will *anyone* who lives down there volunteer to be the point man? If you're too busy, do you know someone who can carve out a little time and would be a good advocate for kiting?

I keep seeing petitions like this pop up for closures in other areas;
example; Veto or amend White-Miskell Act Senate Bill 320 to exclude Kiteboarding
(by the way, while you're there. Sign that petition!) ;)

Not saying that alone will do it. Suggestions in my above replies.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Pea Island "OBX" (closed for Kiteboarding)
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:15 pm 
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Dimitri,

As directed you passed on your warning, it was discussed, and the topic has been sitting idle for a couple weeks. Do you have any thoughts on how we could work with FWS to restore the access (that we never apparently had but was obviously tolerated)? Can you lead this or recommend someone else local to lead it? I'll help as much as needed from afar and I know others will join in. See my above responses for action suggestions.

Related - There is a large fight going on up in Cape Cod with the FWS regarding access as well. It is between FWS and the town, fisherman, and all recreation users of the area, which includes kiters. From a kiting perspective the area includes beautiful offshore terrain (sand islands and slicks) that kiters will be prohibited from going anywhere near. Recreation use will not be allowed. They are proposing to ban kiteboarding, and a bunch of other activities, within that area. They are proposing to have increased patrols and to fine people who are not following their rules.

Similar to the Pea Island issues, it seems like loose but restrictive language which may have been there all along (I'm new to the topic) and is now being enforced.
Here is a map of the proposed closure area;
Region_5/NWRS/North_Zone/Eastern_Massachusetts_Complex/Monomoy/Monomoy_NWR2014_ClosedAreas.pdf
Included in the large closure area shown above, note that the "South Beach" area noted is a new claim by the FWS. Since there was a breach north of South Beach and it now connects to the South Monomoy area...they're taking it. "Mine!"

A couple articles on the fight the town and fisherman are pairing up to address. (Kiters are involved also but I do not believe were grouped with other users at the time the articles were written);
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140513/NEWS/405130333/-1/NEWS01
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140410/NEWS/404100338/-1/news11

Bottom line is there are very good arguments to allow continued recreation use of the Pea Island land, as well as those Cape Cod areas, that do not endanger land or negatively affect wildlife populations. Let's ask for the Pea Island access that we know and love!


There are no online articles I could find specifically limiting kiting in the Cape Cod case, but much like the Pea Island language we are lumped into "recreation"
http://ht.ly/wnHy5
Quote:
...The resolution reads: “WHEREAS, Native Americans, residents and visitors of Chatham have a multi-generational history of shellfishing, fin fishing, and recreation on the upland, intertidal, submerged lands, and open water areas on and around South Beach and Monomoy; and WHEREAS, residents and visitors of Chatham have been using South Beach and the submerged lands and open water areas within the Monomoy Refuge boundary for decades since its designation as a refuge for shellfishing, fin fishing, and recreation...

NOTE - to see the above map in better context, go to page 6 of the following brochure to see the area zoomed out. You can also see (in this earlier brochure) that the South Beach area did not used to be included in the refuge;
Monomoy/MonomoyBrochure.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Pea Island "OBX" (closed for Kiteboarding)
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:52 pm 
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CaptainArgh,
The reason they did this was to make an example out of me. Any way from my understanding even if you do a down winder and lunch in the water or land in the water they will still be on your case because you car is parked on their land from what I was told which is a big "Malakia" like you would say in Greek. But again in order to work this out you need to go to the main source which I'm building a case towards this.
What about the people that drag their coolers on top of the dunes and destroy everything on their path!!!!! These are the people they should worry about not Kiters, windsurfers or surfers.


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 Post subject: Re: Pea Island "OBX" (closed for Kiteboarding)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:12 am 
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Are there any updates on this?
How can we help?

Here are some recent articles on a similar ban up in Cape Cod-

Seashore's kiteboard ban under fire

To Protect Birds, U.S. Seeks Kiteboarding Ban At Monomoy


We have to be proactive and get involved with the parties that control these waterways we kite before the bans. Volunteer our time. Sit on boards. Make presentations when invited. If no one is around to represent the kite community it is pretty easy for a board to say, “No, we decided you can’t do that here. Go away. Scares birds.” and a LOT harder to fight to get that access back!!!


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