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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:39 pm 
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Starsky wrote:
Am I missing something? It's already out there. Those that want to unhook have a great set up as is. For those that don't, the simple ring on dynema slider a lot of good wave riders use is hookless and simple using either your standard commercial release or a good shackle to bring it in a little closer.

A ring and piece of line is so cheap and simple that it's unlikely anyone need or should put much more into an alternative concept to what we have.

Hitch your ring into the line if you don't want it to slide.


Some other members of KF will probably think of more things that are missing, from what you clearly described, and what has become a somewhat common tinkered up arrangement for a minority of kiters... but here are 2 things that I found missing from my experimentation with such an arrangement of this kind of ring, rope and shackle system. I found that the chicken loop and hook system lent itself better to certain things, and since a worthy goal of a "hookless" system would be to invent a device that would be equivalent to the conventional "hook and loop" system... in ALL respects... and not to give up the good characteristics of the conventional system in our attempt to get rid of the BAD characteristics of the hook system. So, the following are 2 good characteristics of the conventional system, which I would like to see incorporated into any new "shackle" system.

(1) The EASE of grabbing onto something large and convenient, in the event of such situations, as an accidental primary safety release. For instance, the huge chicken loop device is quite easy to see and grab on to, and reposition into the hook, even when there is a little bit of tension on the powerline, such as, when the kite is in the water and the wind is still pushing it. So, the point I am trying to make is that a little ring or a conventional shackle on the end of the power line, instead of the huge chicken loop... is not so easy to grab and maneuver into position, and to connect it to the bar.

(2) Self-launching using the "tethered" launch ("ghost launch", "dog stake launch", etc.) can be accomplished much easier using a "hook and loop" system. After the kiter has run back to the bar, the chicken loop can be positioned quickly and easily back into the hook, and secured with the dick, all by using just ONE hand... whereas, the off-the-shelf "shackle and ring" arrangement demands the use of both hands and more fiddling with the positioning and closing of the shackle. It would be a worthy goal to design a release "shackle" that could be simply snapped into place onto a ring, just as easily as a chicken loop can be placed into the hook.

Our goal should be to totally improve the present system and not give up ANY of its good characteristics, and to do so we must think of all the different techniques that individual kiters might feel the need for... including aspects of riding, jumping, launching, landing, etc.

As far as an example of how I have dealt with the (2) self-launching with a tether... here is what I used to do, but I admit, it was not as easy to perform, as was using a conventional chicken loop. I attached to the power line, a small ring just above the shackle, and I would then attach a rope to the anchor (dog stake or post, etc.), and on the end of the one meter rope, I tied a Cabrinha mushroom release device... and I would clip this piece of hardware to the ring which was attached to the power line, and this would hold the kite in place, just as would a carabiner clipped to a chicken loop. When I arrived back at the bar, in preparation for disconnecting from the anchor post, I would get down on my knees and fuss with the shackle on the power line to position it and close it onto the ring of the spreader bar, and then I would release the mushroom release from the little ring, and then launch the kite. This technique worked, but can be immensely improved on by a well designed shackle system... I would hope.

So, these are a couple of probably many reasons to design a "kiteboard-specific" piece of hardware, and not just use what is available at the hardware stores.

I would hope some members would list other pros of the chicken loop-hook system, which need to be duplicated in the "hookless" system devices.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:12 am 
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There is a carabiner called the Kong Frog, used in climbing.

If it was shaped to be oriented by the opening in the control bar and you had a half-ring on the spreader bar, you could clip onto the spreader bar just by pulling the control bar to make the Kong Frog clip in. It could be built in stainless steel and could have a ring around it to operate the quick release, which would work in the push-away direction.
There may be an issue with the current model about the force required to release it when under load.



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-E8Vb5nbTPLo/T ... C07459.JPG

http://www.kong.it/I_frog.htm


Last edited by ronnie on Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:38 am 
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Location: Oahu
jens wrote:
if you are unhooking inadvertently it has nothing to do with your gear, it is your technique or lack there of.

I can't understand why people choose to think their equipment is poorly designed when in reality it is just there lack of understanding of why things are happening.

I know i sound harsh but I love kiteboarding and hate to see it overrun by soft weekend warriors who rather invent a crutch then learn the right way to do something. It is no different then the board leash argument.

Get some situational awareness and don't be a kook, there are far to many of them already.


You come off as very arrogant.
It is such a silly thing to blame the users. The moment you do, your product development will suffer. Regardless of what you make.

This is simply a numbers game.
Just because you have made something work doesn't mean it is a great solution, and just because one other person find an issue, doesn't mean it is a problem in general. And finally just because something seems to work to some extent doesn't mean there there isn't a better way to do something.

What needs to happen is for someone to analyze and see if there is a problem, how we can improve the system, and how that can solve more problems for a lower cost. There are so many potential ways to improve these systems it baffles me.

Why do you care if someone is a weekend warrior? That has less to do with loving kiteboarding and more to do with being a bit douchey to other people.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:24 am 
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We solved the chicken loop pop off by wrapping the chicken dick through up and over. Never had a problem after that. It was just the angle when really leaning out on toeside on a wave. Didn't happen often but it did happen at critical times enough for us to investigate.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:14 pm 
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I just thought of 2 more characteristics of our present day "hook and loop" attachment systems that must be preserved in any new attachment system, such as a "shackle and ring" arrangement:

(1) Ability to spin the bar to un-twist lines after rotations.
(2) Compatibility with the industry standard for safety systems, which at this point seems to be the "single front line re-ride" system.

I think that these two criteria will be easy to achieve, in that we have a number of good models in production, right now, and the present swivels and safety line routing systems could be applied to any new attachment system, without too many changes.

On the philosophy and subject of the need (or rightness) to continue the development of kiteboarding equipment, let me quote from the "old testament" of kiteboarding... that hallowed document being the premier issue number one, winter 1999 copy of KiteBoarding magazine... two copies of which I procured in 1999 and keep in a vault, as I plan to pass it on as a valuable family heirloom... yeah, watch for it to come on Ebay in about 30 years, ha, ha.

Anyhow, here were the featured articles:

BARS VS HANDLES

TWO-LINE VS FOUR-LINE

INFLATABLE VS RAM-AIR

In the discussion on the pros and cons by Lou Wainman, Pete Cabrinha,Eliot Leboe, Raphael Salles and Don Montiegue were the following opinions on kiteboarding equiment... "What works":
I am sure that only 15 years later, even those guys crack up when they read the opinions...about what needs to be developed and what is just fine, as it is for kiting.

"Bars vs Handles": "There are a couple of things that freaked me out when I spent a little time on the water with a bar... you get this swing thing where you head forward over the bar. That disorients me because my hands were down by my waist instead of by my chest. Also, I found that the bar got in the way. It was too invasive. I just feel that handles give me more space in front of me... I like to think that handles will get more popular...With handles, the ends of the lines can come close together so they don't steer the kite when you spin like a bar would."

"Two-line vs four-line": "Two lines are much easier to do tricks like handle passes. You definitely can't do it with handles. With four lines it's just one more thing to worry about, and I don't notice that much of gain in performance to warrant using it... the only advantage I can see with a four-line is if your kite isn't water-relaunchable, at least you could back it out of the water easier."

I will now quote from the articles about safety release systems and from the discussion about chicken loops and security attachment D Dicks............................................................. Now, that's ODD...ha, ha, ha.............................................................sometimes I crack myself up! ha, ha, ha, weeeeee, huuuuuuu...........guess I will have to read the magazine over more closely..... don't seem to see those articles :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:38 pm 
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Quote:
it's a bit easier for a line to get snagged by the spreader hook. Have you ever had your bar trapped under the spreader hook?


In 14 years I can honestly say I've never had that problem. I've occasionally experienced accidental unhooking but its no big deal - you just grab the loop and hook back in. You just need to get used to riding unhooked a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:24 am 
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Toby wrote:
we had that in 2001 already. fully spinnable bar with safety, front lines untwisting.

awesome!!!


If you were around in 2001 then you would also know why we got rid of the Wichard shackles. They don't work for kiting. The slightest slop in the shackle would cause it to self release, or the bail would catch on the lip and it would not release at all.

The various double-ball modifications to make it easy to trigger the release would be activated by water pressure and it would self-release.

Chicken loops are not perfect, but they are vastly superior to quick release shackles.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:32 am 
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Hey.... great to have members of the forum who have the benefit of many years of kiteboarding experience. You have seen a lot of changes and improvements over the last decade and a half, as have I. Kiters who have had the benefit of those years can be very valuable to the development of equipment designed to be an improvement in functionality and safety.

So, to get back to the subject of this thread, I will restate part of my first post:

"So, let's give it a try... and see if we, members of Kiteforum, the largest group of online-kiters on the planet, can come up with a design for a kiteboarding "attachment device" (most likely, a type of shackle) that will be an improvement in functionality and safety over the conventional "chicken loop/bar-hook" mechanism. If we are successful, then, maybe the manufacturers of our kiting equipment will begin producing the new and improved product, to be used by the majority of kiters, rather than the "one design fits all" 'hook and loop' product that presently dominates the market.

I think that the first step would be to list all the good qualities of the conventional "hook and loop" system, so that the design that we hope to develop will not fall short of including these characteristics in the design."

......................................

Thanks for restating the short-comings of the old "off the shelf" shackles, just as some members have stated the short-comings of the chicken loop and hook systems.

I was just guessing that a new and improved "attachment device" would resemble a type of shackle, but we certainly do not want the improved device to contain the short-comings of the old Wichard shackles. Let me offer another guess... that the improved device might be more similar to one of the safety release mechanisms, presently used to detach the chicken loop from the power line... OR... Maybe it will take the shape of a completely new mechanism, which has not been used in kite equipment. Maybe the device should be modeled after a piece of equipment used in climbing, for instance, like the device shown in Ronnie's most recent picture. Thanks for that piece of research, Ronnie. I had not seen that item before.

So, to get back on track, with the project, remember that the purpose of this thread is not to compare the devices ( for instance: CL vs Wichard) that are presently available and in use...but the purpose is to design something new, that does not require the old-fashioned windsurfer spreader bar HOOK... which the majority of kiters do not need, since they do not perform unhooked tricks.

Over the brief history of kiteboarding, we have gotten rid of a lot of stuff, much of which was a carryover from windsurfing, and I would give as an example, not only the "hook"... but also the "harness lines" which were the early solution to the "attachment-to-the spreaderbar" dilemma... before the chicken loop was concieved. I think that we are all glad that we moved forward from that solution. Let's now move away from the "hook" solution... which hopefully, is possible.

More ideas please!


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:01 am 
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OzBungy wrote:
Toby wrote:
we had that in 2001 already. fully spinnable bar with safety, front lines untwisting.

awesome!!!


If you were around in 2001 then you would also know why we got rid of the Wichard shackles. They don't work for kiting. The slightest slop in the shackle would cause it to self release, or the bail would catch on the lip and it would not release at all.

The various double-ball modifications to make it easy to trigger the release would be activated by water pressure and it would self-release.

Chicken loops are not perfect, but they are vastly superior to quick release shackles.


Good points, but a bit of redesign of a Wichard could solve all of those problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:30 am 
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Location: Rome
As you may know we designed DYNABAR in order to be the most adaptable harness system for traction sports. We studied different attachment options for different needs: fixed hook for freestyle, sliding hook for waveriding/snowkiting/buggy, pivoting hook and fixed U for freeride/racing .
We give you the right solutions, If to use a CL or a shackle is your choice.

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