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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:19 am 
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ronnie wrote:
OzBungy wrote:
Toby wrote:
we had that in 2001 already. fully spinnable bar with safety, front lines untwisting.

awesome!!!


If you were around in 2001 then you would also know why we got rid of the Wichard shackles. They don't work for kiting. The slightest slop in the shackle would cause it to self release, or the bail would catch on the lip and it would not release at all.

The various double-ball modifications to make it easy to trigger the release would be activated by water pressure and it would self-release.

Chicken loops are not perfect, but they are vastly superior to quick release shackles.


Good points, but a bit of redesign of a Wichard could solve all of those problems.



That was my point with my song lyric quote. We were stuffing around with these ideas along time ago. But yes a redesigned wichard maybe. Best to keep all options open for sure.
Damn I made up some weird ass contraptions...not sure why I didn't kill myself a few times...lol


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:51 am 
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Westozzy wrote:
ronnie wrote:
[quote="OzBungy]
If you were around in 2001 then you would also know why we got rid of the Wichard shackles. They don't work for kiting. The slightest slop in the shackle would cause it to self release, or the bail would catch on the lip and it would not release at all.

The various double-ball modifications to make it easy to trigger the release would be activated by water pressure and it would self-release.

Chicken loops are not perfect, but they are vastly superior to quick release shackles.[/quote]

Good points, but a bit of redesign of a Wichard could solve all of those problems.[/quote]


That was my point with my song lyric quote. We were stuffing around with these ideas along time ago. But yes a redesigned wichard maybe. Best to keep all options open for sure.
Damn I made up some weird ass contraptions...not sure why I didn't kill myself a few times...lol[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]


I like building stuff too. The Wichard release takes very little force and it suits what the Wichard was designed for on yachts. For kitesurfing, if they increased the diameter of the steel spring just slightly, it would be a more suitable release force.

The photo on page 2 is of a Wichard clipped onto a reshaped Wichard 10mm ring. The ball release is very small and I could have just used a 6mm nylock nut instead.

A kitesurf version of the Wichard would be able to clip onto the 10mm ring without modifying the ring.
It would have a slightly stiffer spring and a moulded plastic shape for the push away release. They could reshape the part held by the spring to require almost full spring movement to release it under load.
The swivel would have a 6mm hole through it for a flagging line and there would be space between the swivel and the spring to allow that to work without snagging.
The swivelling end would be shaped to allow the flagging line to come straight to the swivel and would take a doubled power line around the side of the flagging line. It would be dome shaped to allow it to swivel if in contact with the control bar.
It would be longer, but they could probably make it lighter because it should only have to hold a couple of hundred kg.
They could beef up the hinge a little on the inside for clipping to a half ring spreader bar.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:44 pm 
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Great to have experienced and creative kiters participating in the discussion. I was hoping that the inventor and manufacturer of the Dynabar would get interested in the project. As an "independent" kite equipment developer and manufacturer, you are the one with the craftsman skills and the tools to create and refine the design of the "attachment " device that we envision.

Right now I can imagine only two practical types of mechanisms around which to model and design the "attachment" device. One is the Ronstad or Wichard style of shackle, which Ronnie showed on page 1 of this thread. The other is the "mushroom" style release, used as a primary safety release by some kiteboard manufacturers. Below are the pictures of the two devices.

At this point, I favor a possible combination of the two models, which would use the latching arm arrangement of the Wichard shackle to engage the "ring" on the spreader bar… and which would use a "mushroom: or "egg" shaped "push-away" release handle. I think that this is what Ronnie is suggesting also… but I would like to see a drawing of his idea.

The main reason that I would favor the shackle mechanism is that, WITH SOME MODIFICATION, I think that the device could be attached to the "ring" with the use of only ONE hand. The idea would be that once the "swing arm" was placed through the "ring", that it could be easily snapped into place with the fingers or thumb of the same hand which grasps the "mushroom" and positions the "swing arm" into the ring. Right now the problem with both the Wichard and Ronstad shackles is that the "swing arm" does not always reliably snap shut. This short-coming could be corrected with a little bit of reshaping of the end of the "swing arm" and "latch".

Another thing to realize, as previously stated, is that the shackle in the picture was not designed to release under extreme force, even though it does so quite reliably. The shackle was designed to work well as a bit of sailboat hardware, but the action of releasing reliability under extreme force, could be improved on, with a modification to the shape and length of the "arms" and pivot mechanism.

Since pictures (and drawings) are worth a thousand words, it might be time to introduce some of these into the discussion. Being able to see an example of what we conceive of, can be very valuable in stimulating critical thinking. I will try to draw a model of what I think is a possibility for a design.


Attachments:
cab mushroom.jpg
cab mushroom.jpg [ 121.63 KIB | Viewed 975 times ]
Wichard%20Quick%20Release%20Snap%20Shackle.jpg
Wichard%20Quick%20Release%20Snap%20Shackle.jpg [ 14.2 KIB | Viewed 975 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:59 pm 
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tomatkins wrote:
Great to have experienced and creative kiters participating in the discussion. I was hoping that the inventor and manufacturer of the Dynabar would get interested in the project. As an "independent" kite equipment developer and manufacturer, you are the one with the craftsman skills and the tools to create and refine the design of the "attachment " device that we envision.

Right now I can imagine only two practical types of mechanisms around which to model and design the "attachment" device. One is the Ronstad or Wichard style of shackle, which Ronnie showed on page 1 of this thread. The other is the "mushroom" style release, used as a primary safety release by some kiteboard manufacturers. Below are the pictures of the two devices.

At this point, I favor a possible combination of the two models, which would use the latching arm arrangement of the Wichard shackle to engage the "ring" on the spreader bar… and which would use a "mushroom: or "egg" shaped "push-away" release handle. I think that this is what Ronnie is suggesting also… but I would like to see a drawing of his idea.

The main reason that I would favor the shackle mechanism is that, WITH SOME MODIFICATION, I think that the device could be attached to the "ring" with the use of only ONE hand. The idea would be that once the "swing arm" was placed through the "ring", that it could be easily snapped into place with the fingers or thumb of the same hand which grasps the "mushroom" and positions the "swing arm" into the ring. Right now the problem with both the Wichard and Ronstad shackles is that the "swing arm" does not always reliably snap shut. This short-coming could be corrected with a little bit of reshaping of the end of the "swing arm" and "latch".

Another thing to realize, as previously stated, is that the shackle in the picture was not designed to release under extreme force, even though it does so quite reliably. The shackle was designed to work well as a bit of sailboat hardware, but the action of releasing reliability under extreme force, could be improved on, with a modification to the shape and length of the "arms" and pivot mechanism.

Since pictures (and drawings) are worth a thousand words, it might be time to introduce some of these into the discussion. Being able to see an example of what we conceive of, can be very valuable in stimulating critical thinking. I will try to draw a model of what I think is a possibility for a design.


BIB
I reckon the Wichard already allows you to clip it onto a half ring spreader bar with one hand. I would drop the hinged arm down through the half ring and press it up with one finger to close it. So I don't think it necessarily needs that but it could probably be made a bit easier.

The other thing is that the Wichard will take loads higher than needed for kiting and can be released with very little force when under heavy load. It actually takes less than ideal force to operate the release, so the spring could be beefed up slightly by redesign to fix that.

I have suggested to Wichard that they could modify their shackle to suit kitesurfing and how I think that could be done. It would have to be commercially successful so I think that would be the major decision ie. could they sell enough of them to make developing it worthwhile?


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:39 pm 
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ronnie wrote:
I have suggested to Wichard that they could modify their shackle to suit kitesurfing and how I think that could be done. It would have to be commercially successful so I think that would be the major decision ie. could they sell enough of them to make developing it worthwhile?


I don't see it, a wichard costs about $100 while for instance an ozone shorty leash (just replace the line with an even shorter one) costs about $25.

I don't see kite manufacturers switching over

You could modify an ordinary chicken loop and put in a shorter line with new plastic coating that is instead of 6 inches around just an inch or two and use that. Fit the chicken loop through the spreader loop.

I usually make my chicken loops longer to make it easier to unhook but I don't see why you can't shorten it.

For a loop like liquid force where the entire loop comes away you could replace the loop with a screw down carabiner, clip into the spreader bar loop and then screw lock the carabiner.


All of these options are much cheaper than wichard trying to manufactur a kite specific quick release shackle.

If there is enough demand from kiters and enough daring for kite manufacturers to make these sorts of devices, they will make them but not the wichard style, it will be something else.

I think the initial demand has to come from professional kite racers since they often work closely with the manufacturers and their modifications to the control bar and harness sometimes make it to market.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:01 pm 
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OK.... here is my conceptual drawing of how a hybrid "mushroom/shackle" would look.

Look closely at some the design features and critique those areas:

(1) The purple "cutaway" of the mushroom, shows an arrangement similar to the Cabrinha where the power line (shown in brown) and the safety line (shown in red) run in a tube with a linear divider.

(2) The purple mushroom is designed to rest squarely against the square "loop" of the shackle. This is so that the mushroom can be grabbed by the kiter, much as the neck of a chicken loop can be grabbed to pull on the power line. The mushroom can then be used in this manner to bring the shackle down to the spreader bar, and the shackle arm will not be closed, but will stay open in preparation for inserting the shackle arm through the ring on the spreader bar. The shape of the mushroom should be designed so that it fits the palm of the hand and leaves the thumb or one finger free to snap shut the shackle arm, with little force needed to do so. The "mushroom" is not designed like the conventional Cabrinha mushroom release, where the mushroom traps the release lever... but in this case, when release is needed, the "mushroom" acts only to pull on the short cord, show in orange, which is attached to and thereby, allows the pull on the shackle release lever. The thin elastic bungee shown in blue acts just like the conventional Cabrinha design and is used to keep the mushroom in the pre-release position.

(3) The safety line shown in red is channeled exactly as it is in the Cabrinha design, and could go to an IDS style or a single center line flag-out.

Here is something to look at think about.


Attachments:
kf mushroom shackle drawing.jpg
kf mushroom shackle drawing.jpg [ 151.52 KIB | Viewed 910 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:58 pm 
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tomatkins wrote:
OK.... here is my conceptual drawing of how a hybrid "mushroom/shackle" would look.
...

Here is something to look at think about.


Good Work !! :thumb:

Makes for a decent starting point ; no way will the spreader-bar hook be grabbing my back-line
with that devise . Yea that happened a few times, (and it makes the kite do Fast loops) that can't be
released ; got out of it by grabbing the opposite rear-line and pulling on it Hard to make the kite crash .

There will always be shortcomings to any design ; some are worst than others ; for me, the spreader-bar
hook is a nightmare that already tried taking my life "Twice" !!

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:08 pm 
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JGTR wrote:
Quote:
if you are unhooking inadvertently it has nothing to do with your gear, it is your technique or lack there of.


Mystic harnesses are more prone to accidental unhooking, lots of posts about it on here, to do with shape of hook.



Either the donkey stick is too short to remain in the spreader hook, OR the kiter needs to learn how to correctly fly a kite...


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:59 pm 
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I wonder how much you could shorten the "tube" on this style release, and still have it reliably work right and not have the ball get stuck in the retainer?

The problem with making the tubing of a chicken loop too short is that it may kink from the pressure of a single band of metal (like a ring), and form a groove in the tubing... and then, not slip out of the ring when the release is activated.

It may turn out that the "ball and retainer" would be a better design to consider for our new "attachment device" that the conventional shackle mechanism.

If the tubing could be shortened to about 3 or 4 cm, and still release OK under pressure, then this style chicken loop design could be used as a "shakle" with little modification. That would be great news!


Attachments:
Epic CL release.jpg
Epic CL release.jpg [ 143.51 KIB | Viewed 644 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:53 pm 
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kitewise wrote:
JGTR wrote:
Quote:
if you are unhooking inadvertently it has nothing to do with your gear, it is your technique or lack there of.


Mystic harnesses are more prone to accidental unhooking, lots of posts about it on here, to do with shape of hook.



Either the donkey stick is too short to remain in the spreader hook, OR the kiter needs to learn how to correctly fly a kite...


Nope as I have already said it could be the spreader bar as due to the shape of the Mystic hook they are more prone to accidental unhooking that other brands, I though that maybe if the OP had recently switched to a Mystic harness then this may be the issue - do a search there are quite a few posts about it and I had a few issues when I switched from Dakine to Mystic. I know how to use a donkey dick and I know how to correctly fly a kite thankyou :thumb:


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