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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:50 am 
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Jackie Treehorn wrote:
SalmonSlayer wrote:
I have not seen anyone bring up the Surefire spreader bar from Slingshot.


Thats because they were crap. The single point attachment to the spreader bar made the hook far more susceptable to twisting forces than a conventional hook - mine lasted about 4 months before it sheared off completely. The little release lever was a pain to use - it was fiddly, prone to being knocked, only on one side and positioned far too close to the body compared to a modern chicken loop release. You also needed some tension in the lines for it to release reliably and the smaller closure on the loop made unhooking/hooking back in a bit of a pain.

You lot keep on saying that you want to improve on the modern connection system, but its still not clear what problems you have with it - other than occasionally becoming unhooked which is a minor inconvenience at worst.The chicken loop/spreader bar hook system that you want to get rid of gives you the option of launching unhooked, riding unhooked, does not rely on any mechanical components and gives you two completely seperate means of disengaging yourself for your kite. What exactly are this big improvements that these other systems bring to the table?


I'm not part of a 'lot' just an individual. I don't want to get rid of anything. I'm just discussing where kitesurf equipment might go in future.

I have a Best redline chickenloop that used to cut though one end of the loop. I have a Switch chickenloop which is difficult to re-assemble. There is a range of chickenloops and problems people have with them are things like difficulty of re-assembly, prone to jamming with sand, too much force needed to release, takes up too much of their arm reach.
There are also good systems which work very well and do exactly what the owner wants.

There have been a couple of attempts recently to come up with a spreader bar hook quick release. I think the idea of a spreader bar Q/R hook is good, in that you only need one which you always use and it should reduce the cost of control bars. I expect that in years to come, that will be the industry standard.
I don't think the current designs are good enough.
The Surefire tried to incorporate a spinning leash, which doesn't have to be on the hook. It did have 2 good features in that it swivelled the hook up at about the right place and it had a small donkey dick which could be swung out of the way if not needed. As you say, a Q/R hook needs a stronger base attachment to the spreader bar. The release I have in mind would be a ridge shaped like an arc of a circle sitting on top of the hook base, which could be pulled to either side to release the hook. Swinging the hook back down would re-assemble the Q/R.

I also think sliding systems will become more common for those that don't unhook. Jay store have done a good job so far designing the Dynabar and I think there may be simpler systems in the future which are more specific to one user's needs.

Its a discussion, not a campaign.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:02 pm 
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Posts: 471
Gojoes....right let me get warmed up.!

Lol

I can tell you all about the slingshot surefire...

The uk dealer has/had approx 40 for sale within the last 2
weeks.

The basic is selling for £5 and the pro model for £10

I don't want or need one. If anyone particularly likes or liked/wants that bit
of kit...

Does that answer your question?
Is it possible to answer your question?

Kookkiter...what you have there is essentially a pelican type hook
Attached to a harness bar(soft connection) in one of the 100s if not thousands of possible configurations.
Very untidy but that is what you have. I am guessing that metalwork and rigging is not
your forte. I hope you recieve due recognition for your truly innovative creation. Your kookbuddies may be well impressed and kook king might want to put it on his shortlist.


Do you understand that without the chicken loop that that is what you have. There is one other connection type as simple as pelican but not as efficiant . You have removed the simplest of all connections which is hook and loop and all of its pros and cons.


Last edited by flyingweasel on Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:05 pm 
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Jackie Treehorn wrote:
[ What exactly are this big improvements that these other systems bring to the table?


Hey Jackie,

In my first post on this thread, I stated some of the goals of the project where an alternate connection system of the kiter to the kite might be developed to eliminate the problems that people have run into with the conventional industry standard "hook and loop" system. Here is what I stated as some of the problems:

"...crushed fingers, accidental releases, line-and-hook tangles, not to mention the compromised "throw" of our control systems, along with other wear and tear problems due to the hook and chicken loop devices?"

Thanks for your concerned and courteous participation in the project... this project, which is kind of a "crowd-sourcing" of ideas, drawing on the thoughts of interested members of this world-wide kite forum. I think that most of the participants are somewhat doubtful of the idea that the majority of kiters would be happier with a different connection system, than the presently used "hook and loop" system, but the driving concept of this project is to encourage the creation of a new system for the group of kiters who would benefit from such a new system... where the existing weaknesses of the "hook and loop" system are eliminated, and replaced with a safer and more reliable device.

I have heard rumors that at least one manufacturer is working on a similar concept device. There may be patents pending, so I wouldn't expect any preliminary information about the device. At this point... the more ideas that are presented for consideration, the better.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:55 pm 
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Posts: 471
tomatkins wrote:
Jackie Treehorn wrote:
[ What exactly are this big improvements that these other systems bring to the table?


Hey Jackie,

In my first post on this thread, I stated some of the goals of the project where an alternate connection system of the kiter to the kite might be developed to eliminate the problems that people have run into with the conventional industry standard "hook and loop" system. Here is what I stated as some of the problems:

"...crushed fingers, accidental releases, line-and-hook tangles, not to mention the compromised "throw" of our control systems, along with other wear and tear problems due to the hook and chicken loop devices?"

Thanks for your concerned and courteous participation in the project... this project, which is kind of a "crowd-sourcing" of ideas, drawing on the thoughts of interested members of this world-wide kite forum. I think that most of the participants are somewhat doubtful of the idea that the majority of kiters would be happier with a different connection system, than the presently used "hook and loop" system, but the driving concept of this project is to encourage the creation of a new system for the group of kiters who would benefit from such a new system... where the existing weaknesses of the "hook and loop" system are eliminated, and replaced with a safer and more reliable device.

I have heard rumors that at least one manufacturer is working on a similar concept device. There may be patents pending, so I wouldn't expect any preliminary information about the device. At this point... the more ideas that are presented for consideration, the better.



Well if there was a middle management speak bs activated qr you would be just fine.

It is evident you are incapable of learning and have a blatent disregard for anybody who has put in the time to learn and experience.

Seriously buddy, what you do on your own time for kicks is your business but take some fucking responsibillity when dicking about with others safety critical systems cos you are bored and have completed every middle management bullshit speak course under the sun...

Luv ya
Carry on kooking

:naughty:


Last edited by flyingweasel on Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:02 pm 
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ronnie wrote:

The Surefire tried to incorporate a spinning leash, which doesn't have to be on the hook. It did have 2 good features in that it swiveled the hook up at about the right place and it had a small donkey dick which could be swung out of the way if not needed. As you say, a Q/R hook needs a stronger base attachment to the spreader bar. The release I have in mind would be a ridge shaped like an arc of a circle sitting on top of the hook base, which could be pulled to either side to release the hook. Swinging the hook back down would re-assemble the Q/R.


Its a discussion, not a campaign.


.................

I have always admired John Doyle and his contributions to the activity of kiteboarding, before his employment with Slingshot, during and after. His ideas and designs were always timely and refined, given the economic and political marketing considerations for the time. I used the Surefire device for a few years, during the period of "C" kites and "reride rear line" safety systems. Until the development of SLE and BOW kites using a bridled system, the "rear line" safety systems were about as reliable as the "front" line safety systems..... but as time and kite science and development moved on, the front line systems have become the standard.

You very well stated the weaknesses of the hinged hook release system on the Surefire bar... accidental releases due to bumping the release lever or due to the chicken loop (or the surrogate 2 inch welded ring that was used by some kiters) twisting and popping out of the "donkey dick"... along with the fracture of the stem of the hook, by agressive riders, and for the first generation of the device... the weakness of the release lever axle (it was fixed the next year). Also, there was a lot of things for a stray line to accidentally catch and snag on.

The device could be closed with only one hand... after a little bit of practice. The most unique feature was the "latch and swing arm hook" release mechanism. I do not recall any complaints about it not working, when it was needed to release. At that time, most release devices worked on the principle of the "sliding pin and double loop" or a modified "shackle-like" catch... before the introduction of the more reliable "mushroom" release.

We are talking about a device engineered in 2005, which is a long time ago in "kite years", but was never "re-engineered" to resolve the inherent problems. As things change in the world of kites and kiters, it is good to take a "relook" at the past... maybe learn something, and apply it to the present and ever-evolving science of kiting equipment.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:25 pm 
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kookkiter wrote:
Latest iteration in the pic. I have been using this style for a while, would never go back. Things I learnt after lots of changes. Thick rope otherwise it will wear at the bar attachments. Pulley wheel otherwise the rope will wear too quick and the action is not smooth. Washers on pulley wheel other wise it chips when you throw it around, say onto the ground. Safety compact and around the bar so it can move. Ropes eliminate all bar torque so you dont need a bar pad. If you use thick rope you only need polyester.

My chicken loop is a modified Flysurfer Infinity1. I would really like a more compact release. I am happy with it now thou as I can use 60cm of throw and dont need to use the trimmer which I may get rid of soon.



Excellent job of "tinkering". Thanks for sticking with the system, long enough to detect the weaknesses and correct them. "Back-to-the-drawing-board" is a respected and necessary principle of engineering... it doesn't matter if you are a blacksmith, an certified mechanical engineer or a "kook" like one of us... it is rare to create a "winner" on the first try. I am guessing that you value each of the "improvements" that you have worked so hard to create... the longer bar "throw", the smoother sliding attachment, the compactness of the system, etc. It is nice of you to share the "stoke".

I would like to see a comparison of the features of the Flysurfer "mushroom" release to that of the pre-2013 Cabrinha "mushroom" release... especially concerning the reliability of the safety line to slide through the device.

And concerning the "safety line", here is a thought concerning the location of the release... whether it should be located (1) on the spreader bar or (2) on the powerline. Think of this: If the release device (shackle type or Stenhouse type or ball and socket type or some other type) is located on the end of the power line, in the position now occupied by the chicken loop, then, when the safety is released, the WHOLE CONNECTION DEVICE must successfully slide up the full length of the safety line; whereas, if the connection device is located on the spreader bar itself, then, when the safety is released, the whole connection device does NOT have to slide up the safety line. So, locating the connection device on the bar would eliminate one source of a possible tangle or snag, during the "flagging out" procedure.

So, I think that a BIG safety concern would be associated with a small, heavy and rapidly sinking device, like a modified Wichard shackle, in its journey up the safety line... and its tendency to swing around and tangle on the safety line. If the "shackle" type connector is fixed to the bar, then this would not be a major concern.

Lots to think about to avoid "shooting yourself in the foot".


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:08 pm 
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I get what you mean ideally if a good replacement for the chicken loop was to be made it would stay with you. This would also mean that each bar you bought would not require a chicken loop and maybe just a ring of some sort or simple connector.

I am quite proud of my setup. Despite how it looks, it works very well. I thought it prudent to join in and show it as a lot of the pictures I have seen have pitfalls I already overcame. Its also cheap to make and most sailing shops will have all the bits. I have used a dynabar and I prefer mine.

I know some are not happy unless their bar is all black and their kite the color of a rainbow. Meh.


The difference between the flysurfer release and the cabrinha one you mention. Release reliability would be the same or better for the flysurfer, the flysurfer can also be modified to have the best spinning you'll find.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:01 pm 
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kookkiter wrote:
I get what you mean ideally if a good replacement for the chicken loop was to be made it would stay with you. This would also mean that each bar you bought would not require a chicken loop and maybe just a ring of some sort or simple connector.

I am quite proud of my setup. Despite how it looks, it works very well. I thought it prudent to join in and show it as a lot of the pictures I have seen have pitfalls I already overcame. Its also cheap to make and most sailing shops will have all the bits. I have used a dynabar and I prefer mine.

I know some are not happy unless their bar is all black and their kite the color of a rainbow. Meh.


The difference between the flysurfer release and the cabrinha one you mention. Release reliability would be the same or better for the flysurfer, the flysurfer can also be modified to have the best spinning you'll find.




You have a fs pelican type hook on a dynabar variation. You have every reason to be beaming with pride.
I am sure Jaystore and fs ( not that fs has even the remotest intellectual property on their release, it has made it to market)and the like will commend you on all your endeavors. Who needs them though when you have kook kings approval. Quick ...get it patented ....heard 95% of the market
should be using this!!!! Its revolutioary!!! Oops...you fucked that already by disclosure!!!!

Honestly, you really are going to have to try a bit harder, put a bit more effort into and learn a
shitload more for any of you tinkers to get what you want...which you currently have f a idea as to what that is.

Or...get a good salesman...

Chancer kooks


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:16 am
Posts: 361
Location: Chile/Brasil
Guys,
check out the new unconventional chickenloopless system at www.boardridingmaui.com
very clean and simple!
maybe this is what you guys are looking for!
Pedro


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:06 am 
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Thanks for posting that... this illustrates the rumor that I heard...

Nice to see some creativity... very simple design.

I like the idea of combining the Zeeko power line adjustment mechanism with this chickenloop-less design. By adding the 2 rings and the double powerline routing, as I showed a few pages back, you can avoid the short line and knots which connect to the spreader bar. If this mod is added, then the "sweet spot" can be dialed in "on the fly". (note: this can only be done on kites which use the "mini-fifth" IDS style kites, like North and F1 models). His present system looks good for use with kites using a single front line flag-out system.

This inventor is someone that kiting has needed for a long time.

Thank you "boardridingmaui" for thinking outside of the box, and for being a brave enough entrepreneur to step out of line.

A breath of fresh air... I think that a lot of people will appreciate your efforts... congratulations!


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