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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:18 am 
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snowycreek wrote:
Tomatkins: (and others, you know who you are)
I think we could probably get a group discount on some kind of therapy.

I staged the first shot of my "parts department" but a picture of it in its normal state could practically be overlaid on you picture. I nearly split my gut laughing when I saw the picture of your research area but it is comforting to know that we are not alone.

And, BTW, the Tuck tape is a nice touch, eh?


So, what's in the grey and blue bins?


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:36 am 
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I was about to ask what was in YOUR blue grey and green bins. Okay, show me yours and I'll show you mine; I have coffee roasting and grinding for obsession number two and homebrew stuff for obsession number three. But, that is for a different forum and another therapy group.

Now, back to the initial directive: a couple of thoughts about loopless and hookless control systems. And, these are random thoughts with no huge design revelation but things I think should be considered.

Some have favoured having the release mechanism on the spreader bar rather than attached to the trim line. This is fine but I would be concerned about having a ring that I could fit my finger into on the "going away really fast" side of the release. So, all you tinkerers, don't lose a finger please.

Everyone working on this project should learn to splice Sprectra. It is really easy. Just Google it. If you need a fid, just go to Wally World and buy knitting needles (or just raid Grandma's house), cut them off and voila! Fid. (that is the thing that you use to feed rope through itself)

When I make a trim line, I splice the line all the way through to make it double thick the full length. The result is a stiffer trim line that is better to grab and it wears better for some reason.

Bushflyer: Nice simple approach. Again, my belief is that the sliding part is not required once you lose the hook and move the center of effort close to your body. Most start this quest with the desire for a sliding attachment as did I but I have found I am happier with the fixed but fully universally swiveling ring on the spreader bar.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:17 am 
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My hook is on a central swivel.
Had the sliding thing and it was okay, but I like the central swivel for the reasons you mention.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:29 am 
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There was a thread on wave riding a long time ago and this photo is from Kevin Salter, showing the rope to centre of bar that he was using.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2350471&hilit=kevin+waves&start=140

The rope from centre of Spreader bar reduces the twisting force on your body, which can be useful if you have a bad back, and it doesn't take any time to get used to compared to a sliding system.
The sliding system does have the advantage that the pull is more directly on your centre of gravity so if you get used to using it and it has the ideal geometry and friction, it has extra advantages.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:54 pm 
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Hi guys and gals,

Just to open a path. The device I'm pointing to here refers to the pre-bow era, ie 2004-2005 when the 2 Wichards where the only alternatives to faulty needle systems.

This solution has been designed by Damien Chaboud, AlpineFoil founder and designer in France.
I've never seen the system myself but he made dozens of them for friends and family on his home-made CNC plasma torch some 10 years ago.

Based on a punch out principle for C kites which had a limited throw, in 2004 this set-up was totally innovative because :
- when you sheeted out, you not only depowered your kite but flagged it with an extra push if needed,
- you could keep both your hands on the bar AND still release if you wanted to,
- the beginners who were afraid of the Wichard used to love it.
- from what I have understood, after release, the bar would go away with the lines and you could recover it with a spectra line attached to the harness...
- reconnectable in the water in a few seconds,

I am just passing the infomation, "As is", it might not suitable for bow kites with extended bar throws. However I introduce it here for 2 reasons:
- once upgraded, this KISS clever device can give ideas to many of you
- I hope Damien - the inventor - will be able to comment on and document his invention.

I believe it is based on a belt buckle principle - pushing the frame upward with the bar would let the needle and the attached spliced loop go... with the front lines.
Image

An additional plastic part (not visible on the picts bellow, ) was included to modify the "sensitiveness" of the device, light (for beginners) to strong (for experienced kiters).

Enjoy ...

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:57 pm 
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snowycreek wrote:

As far as the sliding spreader bar goes, once you move the pivot point right next to your body, I believe the sliding part is no longer needed or useful. Just picture the angle of the trim line when you are on toe side.



Intriguing hypothesis... here is how I plan to test it... try hooking up first to the old school "slider rope bar" ring and then, the same day, the same wind, the same board, I will then snap the shackle on the stationary center ring (which I just rigged up, per your suggestion... thankyou!).

It will be a "double blind" study, as I learned in my statistics class, is the most accurate kind of hypothesis testing. The test results will show whether or not the "null hypothesis" can be rejected... which stated is: "There is no difference detected"

In order to best make the powerline go to the toeside positions, I plan on jumping from "blind to blind" using, first, the rope ring, and then switch to using the stationary ring. So the test should actually be a double "double blind" study... I will have to check with my old statistics professor for confirmation of this making for an even more accurate test study....................I can't remember the professor's first name, 'cause we always just called him Professor W, but, the last thing I recall him saying to me was "Go fly a kite!" ... I'll make you proud of me, Prof W!

Sooooo, here is the series of hopefully, self-explanation pictures, showing the "test subject bar". I don't remember where I got the "flat bar", but by using it, the balance point of attachment is brought even closer to the body than with a conventional round spreader bar.

Also, note that this "flat bar" could easily be rigged up with a secondary quick release, like the one I showed a picture of, using the old "needle" release (slide-bolt action), and also note that a spreader bar, set up like this could also give the kiter the choice of using the center ring for an activity like "tricks" and then using the rope slider ring for an activity like "wave riding", even switching rings while the kite sits on a wingtip on the water.... AND, it is hard to imagine a bar configuration, that would give a kiter.... more "throw" on the power line. Also, note that the smooth, flat surface of the "flat bar" presents no objects, which could accidentally trigger the primary quick release. And... bla, bla, bla...... lets just hope the bar is strong enough and doesn't bend... ha, ha...


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:56 pm 
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Already did the test, and I prefer the swivel action to both the rope slider or the really loose pulley on rod action of the JBar.
The close in to your belly swivel point feels the most natural to me.
The conventional rigid hook feels really wrong after getting used to this.
My spreader (pics above) is flat stock, and not tubular.
Had to weld 3/16" stainless plate to reinforce what JBar built because I bent it so much jumping.
The U bolt is theirs and the hook is theirs (JBar).


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:50 am 
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tomatkins wrote:
flyingweasel wrote:
Seriously....what you want could be fabricated in half an hour to a very high/market standard.


Back to back pelican type hooks in 3 or 4 mm stainless rod between the harness bar and chicken loop line operated off the same bit of loose rigid plastic tubing sheathed in 8mm double nylon backed neoprene so as to release on either push or pull. Secured tubing as standard on 3 mm boingee. On the harness bar either plate or tube, a conforming lifting eye 6 to 8mm replaceable large dia. or preferably d ring in 6 to 8 mm welded through tube/plate. At the chicken loop line either straight to depower rope or through a conforming to hook link, type master.



I would like to see a drawing of this device... or better yet a little mock-up model in whatever materials you have at hand...paper, tape, pvc pipe...nothing fancy...You know, the kind of models that others have presented for illustration of the basic principles of the components involved in the device.

Thanks in advance.


Or even better yet....I give you a fully built working guaranteed item to do with what you please My day rate is £ 1480.00 ...for now.
A cheapskate like you who is au fait with rigging can surely picture
exactly the concept from what I have written no charge and do it yourself with
washing up liquid bottles and cereal boxes n duct tape etc. You know I am on the money :lol:
I may have a bit of time to sort it out approx 5 or 6 weeks from now if you are getting desperate.
You surely have a rough idea?
Would you believe... was surrounded by m8 stainless eyes n d rings n swageless sockets n turnbuckles n a ton of other stainless crap a few hours ago Including a 4 part stainless spliced bridle/brothers!!!! Don't see that often these days its all talurit splice.There really are some master craftsmen left!!

You can do it...honestly, piece o piss!! Or wait ages!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:59 am 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
Already did the test, and I prefer the swivel action to both the rope slider or the really loose pulley on rod action of the JBar.
The close in to your belly swivel point feels the most natural to me.
The conventional rigid hook feels really wrong after getting used to this.
My spreader (pics above) is flat stock, and not tubular.
Had to weld 3/16" stainless plate to reinforce what JBar built because I bent it so much jumping.
The U bolt is theirs and the hook is theirs (JBar).


How much time do you spend on toeside? I noticed some difference when riding heelside compared to the fixed hook, but where the slider REALLY shines is when riding a directional toeside. Especially pulling upwind or cutting back up the face of a wave with the kite behind you.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:15 am 
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Location: Save a life...adopt a Pitbull
The swivel from center goes from left hip to right hip (and up also), just not quite as wide as the slider rope, but the swivel hook works well for toeside with strapless surfboard.
The swivel from a central point only loses and inch or maybe two to the rope slider set up.
A rigid hook feels like the attachment point is hanging out three or four inches from you, which it is.
Won't go back to rigid.
But like anything else, it is all personal preference.


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