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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:44 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:53 pm
Posts: 916
Bushflyr wrote:
Oldnbroken wrote:
Already did the test, and I prefer the swivel action to both the rope slider or the really loose pulley on rod action of the JBar.
The close in to your belly swivel point feels the most natural to me.
The conventional rigid hook feels really wrong after getting used to this.
My spreader (pics above) is flat stock, and not tubular.
Had to weld 3/16" stainless plate to reinforce what JBar built because I bent it so much jumping.
The U bolt is theirs and the hook is theirs (JBar).


How much time do you spend on toeside? I noticed some difference when riding heelside compared to the fixed hook, but where the slider REALLY shines is when riding a directional toeside. Especially pulling upwind or cutting back up the face of a wave with the kite behind you.



Bingo! After my "double blind" test yesterday, I agree, and will stick with the "sliding rope", until I find something that better satisfies my needs. From my test, I concluded that the theory of the "fixed point close to the body" has merit, as worked as described to certain extent..... but.... I didn't like the way the "severe" toeside riding position yanked on my harness.... I like it better when the harness stays in place. Sooooo, some testing is still in order and maybe a "waist" versus a "seat" harness test is needed. Any takers?


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:19 am 
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"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

Sir Isaac Newton

.................

We may have a new "giant"... that would be Gregg, the inventor/manufacturer of the BRM (Boardriding Maui) Cloud kites and control bar system. In the active KF thread about his kites and control system, I stated:

"At this point, I feel that the safety release system that Gregg invented is the most reliable primary safety system available.... judged from a "lack of potential objects to tangle on, during a primary release" scenario.

The basic principle of action, as contained in the unique BRM system, is applied using a different format. It lends itself well to the use of a shackle as a connection device."

So here is presented a description and 12 pictures of the "prototype" control bar system that I have been using for the last 6 kiting sessions, with both my "mini-fifth" line safety and my "front line reride" safety system kites. I have gotten rid of most of the "bugs", and will probably make this system my future control bar system. Here is a diagram of most of the components, and a bunch of pictures... I will let the pictures do the talking and hopefully stimulate some questions from the forum participants, which I will attempt to answer. There is a lot to discuss with this system... there are some "counter intuitive" features, like the rear line "power adjuster" device... it's time may have come!


Attachments:
1 Franken Bar System diagram.jpg
1 Franken Bar System diagram.jpg [ 98.5 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
2 Franken Bar proto.jpg
2 Franken Bar proto.jpg [ 377.6 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
3 Shackle released, bar ready to slide out.jpg
3 Shackle released, bar ready to slide out.jpg [ 316.04 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
4 Bar to Harness shackled .jpg
4 Bar to Harness shackled .jpg [ 230.07 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
5 ring on power line.jpg
5 ring on power line.jpg [ 286.44 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
6 rings on both power lines.jpg
6 rings on both power lines.jpg [ 257.41 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
7 stopper ball.jpg
7 stopper ball.jpg [ 294.24 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
8 Zeeko style 3 ring adjuster.jpg
8 Zeeko style 3 ring adjuster.jpg [ 394.92 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
9 Zeeko P L Adjuster 6 inches.jpg
9 Zeeko P L Adjuster 6 inches.jpg [ 209.56 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
10 powering up with pull rope.jpg
10 powering up with pull rope.jpg [ 439.72 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
11 pull line loose.jpg
11 pull line loose.jpg [ 383.03 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
12 Velcro on float pull rope.jpg
12 Velcro on float pull rope.jpg [ 267.63 KIB | Viewed 743 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:43 am 
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Posts: 47
I see no mechanism to adjust trim on the fly. Complete deal breaker for those of us who kite in places where the wind can go from 15 kts to 25 kts in less than a minute.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:20 am 
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Bushflyr wrote:
I see no mechanism to adjust trim on the fly. Complete deal breaker for those of us who kite in places where the wind can go from 15 kts to 25 kts in less than a minute.



Not necessarily a "deal breaker". I was surprised how easy it is to put the kite overhead and reach up and adjust each line, one at a time, a little bit at a time. I found it easy with a little bit of practice to "depower" the kite this way while on the fly... but to "power" it up is more of a challenge due to the characteristic of the 3 ring "Zeeko" system, in that more force must be applied... you pull on the "pull line" to power it up. The on-the-fly "depower" method involves more steps (slipping off the elastic, pushing up the float, which exposes the lines, and pulling on the correct line), but due to the characteristic of the system, this action requires very little force. The nice thing about this rear line adjustment is that contrary to the action of a front line power adjuster, when you make the rear lines longer, it depowers the system... and that is easy to do with little force.

The "deal breaker" would be for kiters in places where you might want to use a power adjuster every few minutes, with wind that shoots up and then down, all the time. Related to this idea of the use of the power line adjuster, is a lot of residual "myth", left over from the days of the "C" kite. My point is that most kiters, now-a-days, don't use their power adjuster very often, due to the awesome development of kite design. Also, notice the extreme length of "throw" on this system. This characteristic allows the kiter much more "range" in the use of the kite... so in the lulls, you can pull the bar toward you and the "sweet spot" is close to you for the duration of the lull, and then, when the wind picks up, the sweet spot is further away, but still within reach. This system is designed for the conditions you describe, in that you can easily control the kite both the high end and low end, by using different "sweet spots" for a while... and then plan when you want to drop back into the water, and make the change of power adjustment.

Another related point that I will make, before the judgement (see following posts) is made related to the danger of changing one rear line length, without changing the other rear line length IMMEDIATELY... it that the kite will become instantly uncontrollable..... I will wait until someone makes this argument, to present some real-life experience from my experience and experimentation that might change some minds.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:59 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 2984
Bushflyr wrote:
I see no mechanism to adjust trim on the fly. Complete deal breaker for those of us who kite in places where the wind can go from 15 kts to 25 kts in less than a minute.


If the mechanism to do everything else is short enough between the control bar and spreader bar, there may be enough adjustment using a Line-Lok. This is a CL276 on 4mm 12 braid dyneema line, but the smaller CL260 may be sufficient and would give a bigger range of adjustment.

The other picture is of Dale hanging from a CL260.

Idea is to grab the centrelines above the control bar and pull down while sliding the Line-Lok. I haven't tried it under load yet. Or you could drop the kite onto the water with the bar fully out and hold the lines above the release to adjust the trim.


Attachments:
260dale2.jpg
260dale2.jpg [ 12.17 KIB | Viewed 655 times ]
linelokshort.jpg
linelokshort.jpg [ 694.22 KIB | Viewed 659 times ]
lineloklong.jpg
lineloklong.jpg [ 792.63 KIB | Viewed 659 times ]


Last edited by ronnie on Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:19 am 
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Posts: 2984
Tom, you can splice the eye around the sliding ring to allow the safety mechanism a bigger area to slide though and less chance of catching.

Your system with 2 rings and the shackle is potentially very short. and that could leave more room for a trim system.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:31 pm 
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Posts: 2984
Here's the CL260 used with 3mm 12 strand dyneema. It will hold the 4mm 12 strand and Clamcleat say it will take up to 5mm line. I have tried 4mm 8 strand and it goes deeper into the teeth easier than the 12 strand.


Attachments:
cl260short.jpg
cl260short.jpg [ 1.01 MIB | Viewed 596 times ]
cl260long.jpg
cl260long.jpg [ 1 MIB | Viewed 596 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:47 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 2984
tomatkins wrote:
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

Sir Isaac Newton

.................

We may have a new "giant"... that would be Gregg, the inventor/manufacturer of the BRM (Boardriding Maui) Cloud kites and control bar system. In the active KF thread about his kites and control system, I stated:

"At this point, I feel that the safety release system that Gregg invented is the most reliable primary safety system available.... judged from a "lack of potential objects to tangle on, during a primary release" scenario.

The basic principle of action, as contained in the unique BRM system, is applied using a different format. It lends itself well to the use of a shackle as a connection device."

So here is presented a description and 12 pictures of the "prototype" control bar system that I have been using for the last 6 kiting sessions, with both my "mini-fifth" line safety and my "front line reride" safety system kites. I have gotten rid of most of the "bugs", and will probably make this system my future control bar system. Here is a diagram of most of the components, and a bunch of pictures... I will let the pictures do the talking and hopefully stimulate some questions from the forum participants, which I will attempt to answer. There is a lot to discuss with this system... there are some "counter intuitive" features, like the rear line "power adjuster" device... it's time may have come!


On your system, as I said elsewhere, splicing the eye around the sliding ring would help it slide in that it would give a smoother shape and more area for sliding. Another way would be a loop/loop connection with the ring in between the loops.

The front lines go to a Y shape at the ring, so it may be that there will be some wear potential, and it would be better that the thick power line was slightly longer than the line with the ring on it so that the ring contacted the thick line?

With two similar rings, it is not good for clipping onto one of them with a carabiner, but you have fixed that by having a leash permanently attached to the ring. This means leash attachment will be via the Q/R rather than a carabiner.

You have a swivel at the Wichard, but cannot use it because of the leash system.

The stopper looks workable, but prevents just letting the bar go to drop the kite.

I would prefer a push away release for the primary release.

I don't like the adjustment of each rear line separately. Its far too complicated and prone to getting the line lengths different. It also will cause the kite to turn as you are adjusting it.

On the good side, it does create a lot of space for a trim system like the LineLok one.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:03 pm 
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Posts: 916
Ronnie,

Thanks for scrutinizing the system for short-comings and potential improvements... you found a few, and I appreciate your effort!

See my responses below your observations:

Observation:

"On your system, as I said elsewhere, splicing the eye around the sliding ring would help it slide in that it would give a smoother shape and more area for sliding. Another way would be a loop/loop connection with the ring in between the loops."

Response:
Excellent suggestion: see the Picture of the new " 2 larksheads to ring" design. An additional positive feature of this connection method might be a minimization of the danger of the ring winding around the red slider rope… as the ring is now centered and the "rotational swing-weight" would probably be decreased a little bit... decreasing the tangling potential.

Observation:

"The front lines go to a Y shape at the ring, so it may be that there will be some wear potential, and it would be better that the thick power line was slightly longer than the line with the ring on it so that the ring contacted the thick line?”

Response:
In my mind the jury is still out on the safety concern which amounts to "less danger of wear breaking the rope" versus "one less bump for the ring to slide over during release action". There is a compromise which may decrease the danger related to the wear of the rope… and that would be to double the bulk of the red slider line, by feeding the red rope inside itself in the area of potential wear from contact with the ring. On periodic inspection (you get a good view of it every time you go kiting!), if wear is noted on the outer layer of braid, it would give a "warning sign"… long before it would break. I will redo the eye splice to accomplish this. The ring will never hit a "bump" since it will be above the connection point… and so the only connection point the ring will have to slide over will be the one where the leader line connects up to the front line… and that connection would be trouble free due to the "funnel effect" where the line diameter decreases in diameter, in the direction of travel of the ring.

Observation:

"With two similar rings, it is not good for clipping onto one of them with a carabiner, but you have fixed that by having a leash permanently attached to the ring. This means leash attachment will be via the Q/R rather than a carabiner."


Response:
I never liked the idea of using any kind of metal "clip" if it can be avoided… which it can, with the ring-to-leash connection, shown in the picture above…. plus the act of connecting and releasing the secondary quick release builds "muscle memory".


Observation:

"You have a swivel at the Wichard, but cannot use it because of the leash system.”

Response:
The Wichard swivel can be used to unwind the front lines, by grasping and turning the shackle body, but as you noted, the kite leash winds around the two power lines, as you turn the shackle. The problem could be solved by the "old school" solution used by Naish, Windwing and Slingshot a few years back, when rear line reride safety was in common use. A properly designed shackle with one of the mechanisms shown in the pictures below would allow the rider to unwind the leash, after the swivel was hand turned. Hand turned swivels are gaining popularity, as manufacturers loose faith in the "inline swivels" (although Core bars have an innovative solution). I avoid the problem by counter-spinning the bar after a rotation or kite loop, and this also keeps things tidy... and less likely to tangle... and it’s fun.


Observation:

"The stopper looks workable, but prevents just letting the bar go to drop the kite."

Response:
The stopper works great, and allows the bar to be spun, and allows the bar to be positioned and retained at just the right distance for self-launching, using the tethered ghost launch… or for flying the kite overhead, with the bar released. The two Allen screws can be set to just the right tension, so that the stopper can be repositioned using about 20 pounds of force… and it slides out, as needed, if the bar hits it with excessive force, for some reason. I placed 2 sections of poly tubing inside a ball, drilled 2 holes for the Allen bolts to secure it, by compressing the poly tubing and squeezing the spectra rope. The bolts do not touch the spectra, although this could be done for an immoveable stopper design.


Observation:

"I would prefer a push away release for the primary release."

Response:
IMO, the jury is still out on the best motion (push vs pull), WHEN the release mechanism is so close to the body, and the release mushroom handle has such a SHORT travel, as in the case of the Wichard. Lots of factors to take into consideration, like: If you are being violently dragged, the "pull" release might get hit and release, which would be OK.


Observation:

"I don't like the adjustment of each rear line separately. Its far too complicated and prone to getting the line lengths different. It also will cause the kite to turn as you are adjusting it."

Response:
This is how I used to feel, after the experience of this concept in the past, but now I look at the well expressed above idea… as mostly "residual myth" from the "C" kite era, where the "throw" on the bars was only a few inches, and the relative differences in front and back line length was incredibly critical for kite behavior…I will get more information and opinion on this "rear line adjustment" concept on the KF thread, devoted to this idea, and where a lot of good discussion already resides. I like the idea of having ONE major thread on each of the very important topics that are brought up on this forum. That thread is:

A bar suggestion for a nova type kite


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2320070

Observation:

"On the good side, it does create a lot of space for a trim system like the LineLok one."

Response:
That is true, and individual kiters may want to use this extra, close to the body "throw" for different uses. For instance, those kiters with short arms may want the extra throw so that they do not have to reach out so far… myself, I want it to control the kite in low wind situations, for a limited period of time in big "lulls" or, for instance to kite through a big "wind shadow" to get out to the good higher wind to do my riding… and avoid constantly using a power line adjuster in variable conditions.

I like your idea of using a LineLok in place of a cleat or a series of knots, as seen on the otherwise awesome BRM bar.

Pictures below:


Attachments:
doubled line thru ring.jpg
doubled line thru ring.jpg [ 141.99 KIB | Viewed 477 times ]
LEASH  swivels WW and Slingy.jpg
LEASH swivels WW and Slingy.jpg [ 197.9 KIB | Viewed 477 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:26 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:48 pm
Posts: 366
A small push away QR mechanism with this bar and I would be happy. I would miss the safety of floats because they help keep leader lines from wrapping my bar, but I would take that chance. I would also add a leash setup. This one is purely for surfing where you just let your kite go if you can't get it up quickly.

It is an exercise in Bar/QR simplicity from the guy that makes Engine Harnesses ( https://ride-engine.com/shop/harnesses/armor/)

"Draft 3. Realized that since I'm making them so light I can use the grips as the floats and not need floats at all. This is the first draft that I've liked more than a "normal" bar. Having the pinched shape in the middle of the bar is great for one handed control and the big grips feel a lot more comfortable then the thin ones I was aiming for initially."

Posted here https://www.facebook.com/ride.engine/photos/a.422730161107104.93643.316840578362730/771260706254046/?type=1&theater

Image


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