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 Post subject: Re: Fatality in Long Island, NY
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:40 pm 
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plummet wrote:
Bille wrote:
AlterEgo wrote:
Billie, the point Stafford was trying to make is the same as your dumbass gunshot theory. If Valtz died of a heart attack or gunshot then it would not really be a kite accident and it would not have mattered if he was kiting alone. Isn't Billie a girls name?


I'm sorry that you Don't have the cognitive resources to realize , that if
he Did have a heart-attack while kite boarding "Alone" ; CPR most certainly, ( Could have)
brought him back , if administered with-in a few minutes
AND IF
he had bin kiting with a Buddy who knew How to give the life-saving technique !!

You spelt my user-name Wrong ; who's the Dumb-ass now ?

Bille


Bille. I respect you but I think your missing the point.

No one is saying kiting alone is not dangerous. They are saying that they assess the risk and do it anyway.

I guess the question is this. What is the actual risk of kiting alone? Personally I think it is quite low and worth the risk. Considering 9 times out of 10 you couldn't be saved by a buddy who was also kiting near by. Kiting alone risk is not much worse than kiting with others.

Now there is greater actual risk driving to the beach to kite. The likely hood of dieing in a car accident is far greater.

snip


How did you come to that conclusion?


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 Post subject: Re: Fatality in Long Island, NY
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:53 pm 
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about kiting alone vs kiting with friends - the discussion on this thread that's happening is over experienced kiters. i'm sure we could debate this til we're red in the face...

but unfortunately Mr. Valtz was a novice - i think we all could agree that any novice shouldn't be alone on the water hooked up to a kite.

i just wonder who launched him? or did he launch himself? or did he not even succeed in launching.

he was found attached to his kite floating on the water by his family, the rest of his gear was in a grassy area on shore. but unfortunately we know nothing more than this.

we're awaiting the news - that's all we can do right now.

a friend of mine knew him and said he was a good person and will be missed. he's from brooklyn, and leaves behind two little ones and a wife who was also his colleague. it is very sad.


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 Post subject: Re: Fatality in Long Island, NY
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:55 pm 
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echo wrote:
about kiting alone vs kiting with friends - the discussion on this thread that's happening is over experienced kiters. i'm sure we could debate this til we're red in the face...

but unfortunately Mr. Valtz was a novice - i think we all could agree that any novice shouldn't be alone on the water hooked up to a kite.

i just wonder who launched him? or did he launch himself? or did he not even succeed in launching.

he was found attached to his kite floating on the water by his family, the rest of his gear was in a grassy area on shore. but unfortunately we know nothing more than this.

we're awaiting the news - that's all we can do right now.

a friend of mine knew him and said he was a good person and will be missed. he's from brooklyn, and leaves behind two little ones and a wife who was also his colleague. it is very sad.



Agreed, we were kiting on Lake Michigan last weekend and there was another guy keeping to himself - seemed okay doing anchored self launches, and then getting blown downwind in the waves and walking back upwind, occasionally dropping his kite and having to recover it. We finally talked to him at the end of the day and turns out it was only his second time out on his own on the water on a board. I wish he had asked for assistance as we would all have happily helped him, and feel I should have realized he was not experienced and could be a novice and went and offered help. We encouraged him to ask any other riders around for help next time he went out.

I regularly kite alone doing downwinders at Cape Hatteras and in Cape Town, but I'm 10 years into this sport now, and feel comfortable doing those, even across inlets at Cape Hatteras where there is noone else around.


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 Post subject: Re: Fatality in Long Island, NY
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:31 pm 
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Posts: 314
First of all condolences to Nicholas family, may him RIP.
Another mysterious accident to a top finance man.
RobertoVillate & CaptainArgh:
I agree with you guys about the sharing accidents dynamics in order to help preventing repeats and increase overall safety.. I've always wondered why this is not common procedure on any fatal accident, not only in extreme sports :-?

BUT…

I've possibly understood why, when 2 years ago I was involved in my nearly fatal deathloop accident (full post here:https://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=2376771&p=758372#p758372).

It was a nasty freak accident, a sequence of events that led to my final drowning ending up washed to shore completely lifeless… out for over 10mins when brought back by several desperate attempts of CPR, and final oxygen mask from the paramedics.

Being an experienced kiter, who has always kited safe and was ultra confident in any size wave or winds, with the help of the local community and some professional kiters friends, have all analysed in detail the dynamics…

Before even taking the decision of going back kiting, in fact straight out of the intensive care unit, all I was craving was to share my experience with the rest of us, to make it bold and try to rise the safety system standards in our sport, which in my view is pretty obsolete.

In the end it was agreed that although the incident occurred as a consequence of a very unlucky odd sequence of these events:

1. A faulty chicken loop
2. A faulty (asymmetrical stiching) RRD Obsession 7m kite
3. A broken bar (broken in mid air during the crazy loop at around 45Kn)
4. A hook safety knife stuck somewhere in the harness, never used before or trained to

What played the biggest role in the dynamics and made it nearly fatal was:
5. The safety release red handle being stuck around my body and the harness, unreachable and unreleasable.

>>> This has happened purely because it was clipped on the handle pass at the back of the harness, in unhooked freestyle position.


This bad habit makes no sense, but is taught around the world by 99% of kite instructors, including IKOs and most kiters think that is normal to use the safety leash in this way. IT'S NOT! ESPECIALLY IN STRONG WINDS… :nono:

When you get pulled in such a violent way in rough seas, the red handle must be EASILY reachable with your hands. It needs to be clipped at the front or side of you, so to have the release as close to your body and hands as possible.

A FULL RELEASABLE HARNESS SHOULD ALSO BE CONSIDERED.

I would have thought that there was a clear lesson for everybody, or even at least for the fellow kiters present at the scene (some of them really disturbed by the accident and by my zombie-bloated-black faced state..).

INSTEAD?!?
ALL OF THEM ARE KEEP USING THE SAFETY LEASH (IN ALL CONDITIONS) ON THE HANDLEPASS RING AT THE BACK OF HARNESS, AND MOST OF THEM ARE NOT EVEN INTO FREESTYLE, BUT JUST REGULAR HOOKED SURFING / FREERIDING!!! :duh:

VERY SAD, but not surprising either when it seems like most people on this post believe that kiting solo is as dangerous as kiting with friends?!? Let's get rid of the safety release too, actually let's even get rid of ambulances and emergency services… and all other paranoias… we kiters are immortal! :lol:

You guys make me laugh.. you don't know a damn thing about first aid rescue and you practice a water based extreme sport? :duh: The only chance of bringing a drowning body back to life is an immediate CPR, even wrongly performed… what's your plan in that scenario just out of interest? You also make me think that you possibly don't care about anyone else out at sea when you are kiting… as you think it's all useless.
Luckily in my local spot we all watch for each other (experienced) and especially for beginners.

Sorry to go on about my experience but MY LIFE WAS SAVED BY MY BEST MATE AND ANOTHER FELLOW KITER WHO FOLLOWED ME TO SHORE AND THEY BOTH STARTED CPR ON THE BEACH MINUTES BEFORE THE PARAMEDICS ARRIVED. I WOULD BE DEAD IF I WAS ON MY OWN...

K I T E S A F E ! ! ! ! :thumb:

Y O U A R E N O T I M M O R T A L !

I A M :wink:

PS.
My lesson:
I only use 5 line kites, a fully releasable harness, 2 x proper marine standards knives AND I NEVER KITE ALONE 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Fatality in Long Island, NY
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:08 am 
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I think this may be one of those fatalities that no one will ever know what was the real cause. I keep checking the news and nothing has been reported. I read that they were going to do an autopsy but it didn't have to be released to the public.


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 Post subject: Re: Fatality in Long Island, NY
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:17 am 
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Posts: 1452
Location: PASA Level III Instructor FL- OBX - MI - the world
Quite a story Mr Moon! I'm glad you are here to tell it, and you have brought up some very important points.

I agree completely about the leash attachment point on the harness. I teach every single one of my students to use an anchor on the front of the harness/spreader bar..and I demonstrate to them why by pulling on the leash while it is attached to the back of their harness...they all look at me in shock and wonder why the standard in the industry is to attach to the back of the harness???. I tell them (sarcastically) that it looks "cool" to have it anchored to the back so everyone immediately knows that you are doing unhoooked handlepasses.

A good friend of mine almost got killed by this scenario a few years ago. Understandably he was quite shaken by it and after he got out of the hospital we did an experiment with his "line cutter" (which he couldn't reach and/or didnt have time to pull)...so standing on dry ground we anchored his leash to a stationary object and then pulled the "line cutter" and tried to cut through the leash. It took over 8 seconds...and in that amount of time lots of shit can happen...so the line cutter may not have helped anyway. Personally I prefer a real knife that has a combination blade, on a lanyard, in a scabbard lashed to my harness wher I can reach it with either hand. I've made the case for this many times in the past. Some people still feel that a line cutter is sufficient (and perhaps it is better than nothing) but I would say 90% of kiters don't have a knife at all.

This always reminds me of something a wise old sailing skipper said to me once..."a sailor without a knife is like a hooker without a p*$$y" (sorry girls for this crude anecdote...but it's sort of true)

I've been teaching kitesurfing for a long time and there are a lot of things I wish we could require new kiters to do...including (but not limited to) carrying a knife and know how to use it, maintain a CPR/First Aid certification, always come to the aid of a distressed person in the water, etc...but 99% of the people in this sport do not want rules or regulations beyond the very basics, and 99% of people don't want to spend more than a few hours and a few hundred dollars on lessons.

So yeah, I agree with what you have said, and very few people can say it better than yourself having gone thru a fatal/near fatal accident.

From my own experience I can tell you all that when you are being pulled by a looping kite, or being dragged underwater by a kite being swept by strong waves (even 3-4 foot waves) the forces are enormous and nearly impossible to overcome. If and when you have a moment to react and do something it must be done without hesitation because the next time you are dragged underwater you will be that much weaker or worse - completely incapacitated. Ben Wilson wrote a story about this once and he described it as the closest he has come to drowning because he forgot to release everything. Often the best thing is to release the kite completely because even a flagged out kite being shoved by a wave will pull you underwater. This is not a fun experience, at least it wasn't for me.

This is why we need to share information, so others can learn from mistakes and/or freak circumstances and know how to deal with/prevent them.

again to the Vaultz family, respectfully...Roberto


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 Post subject: Re: Fatality in Long Island, NY
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:36 am 
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Can anyone recommend an easily removable harness for such situations?


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 Post subject: Re: Fatality in Long Island, NY
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:43 am 
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pecmajor wrote:
Can anyone recommend an easily removable harness for such situations?


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2373917

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2373918&p=731522

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2376875&p=759455


?f=1&t=2376875

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2373917


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 Post subject: Re: Fatality in Long Island, NY
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:18 am 
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Posts: 253
Are these fully releasable harnesses designed to release under load? Also, really why would one need this? A quick release failure? Lines wrapped around your spreader bar hook? What other scenarios? Couldnt all of these scenarios be solved by cutting out with a knife as opposed to trying to release your harness?


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 Post subject: Re: Fatality in Long Island, NY
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:50 am 
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Agree with most of above, especially clipping the safety leash to harness back handle is worse than not clipping at all; but clipping to the front can also be dangerous. If you release chicken loop and are on safety leash in waves and a head-high wave catches your kite, you will be dragged super hard, will bend backward like a pretzel in the water and may injure your back or neck. I got caught once (used side clip, see below) and could not believe the power I was experiencing (the kite exploded under water pressure after ~5 seconds thankfully).

Right place to clip the safety leash is on the SIDE OF THE HARNESS (most harnesses I've seen have side clip rings).


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