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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:32 am 
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herbert wrote:
geez....that is what my wife complains about. Retirement gives me the time to do it, but it is just a bad habit I have...200 words when 5 words would have done fine.


I liked the review. It gave good context..but of course people with about 10 sec of concentration should get a TL;DR;


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:25 pm 
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The design actually is very easy to change to have a stopper or replace the ring below the bar with a swivel.

It seems to be a case of why add things when there is a way to ride that doesn't need them?


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:22 pm 
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ronnie wrote:
The design actually is very easy to change to have a stopper or replace the ring below the bar with a swivel.

It seems to be a case of why add things when there is a way to ride that doesn't need them?


Yup :-) I keep on riding like that..oh..not the lines are twisted 5 times this way..well let me downloop a few times. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:47 am 
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Having to land your kite to adjust the trim seems like it would be a deal breaker for me but you never know until you try it.


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:31 am 
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Slappysan wrote:
Having to land your kite to adjust the trim seems like it would be a deal breaker for me but you never know until you try it.


I think the main thing is, you don't really need to adjust your trim. I am now using the second knot for both of my kites in whatever winds. If I were to change the trim knot setting it would only be if I changed the kite. But even then, I am not even changing it. The main variation is going to be related to seat or waist harness and your arm length and the general feel of it for each individual. You are not really trimming the kite I would say, so much as choosing a preferred position for where full sheet-in sits....something that has not been offered before. It is kind of like adjusting seat height on a bicycle or steering wheel position in a car.

With other bars, you move the trim strap, it changes what the trim on the kite is at full sheet-in position. With the Cloud CS, the trim on the kite at full sheet-position never changes. Always four equal length lines to the kite at that point. You just find a setup for where that point of four equal line sits out from your spreader bar.

I moved it around the first 8 or 9 times to check out what I wanted. Now I am settled on one.
I think it might be more accurate to describe it as: Now that you can adjust a bar system to suit your personal fit, you don't need an auxiliary trim system, the trim with the bar movement is suddenly all you need, as it should have been all along. With the customized sizing, adjusting trim at full sheet-in has been rendered superfluous. The headline should read "Trim straps rendered obsolete."

I had been watching the development as much as I could see from the website (since I had the kites). I kind of thought it would be cool. Now I realize if someone asked me while I was flying with the old system...wouldn't it be nice to have some kind of system in which the trim of the kite is always the same relative to any given arm position and extension, and regardless of the wind and how fast it changes or your need to change the kite trim and your power, you can do it simply by moving the bar within a very comfortable range? Period. I had not somehow expected that...but that is what it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:51 am 
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I am intrigued by this. Not yet enough to pay the price, but interested in principle.

I am a fan of tearing it down and eliminating superfluous mechanisms and details. I have a BWS quiver and their bar has similar ethos....less to tangle up while wiped out in the waves, the better.

Reading the BRM website description, the approach makes sense -- in particular that eliminating the chicken loop gives you an extra 1 foot of throw ... when I think of it, with the c loop and also with the slack in my dynabar sliding hook, I probably only have 12 inches of throw. If this could be expanded to 24 inches, maybe I wouldn't need to rely on trim/depower line to keep from getting overpowered in variable winds? Hmm.

One of the things I don't like about my BWS bar is the limited trim/depower potential, with bigger kites in gusty conditions. Once the full trimmed is used up, if the wind increases, there's not a lot of wiggle room for safety. Compare this to the Ocean Rodeo bar with its unlimited throw and massive depower for safety.....but like with everything, this benefit comes with drawbacks, like no more single line flagging.

Looking at the BRM bar, a few things I wonder if they went farther than needed. For example, the BWS bar has a manual swivel just above C Loop...very easy way to unloop lines. Yeah, you could loop the kite other way, etc....but why should you have to if easily resolved with a simple mechanism?

Similarly, the BRM knots that offer a trim adjustment, but not on the fly. If a simple cleat would allow this on the fly, that seems preferable to me than not.

And horns to wrap lines the "old" way...I understand the new way offers a reasonable alternative, but I don't really see why that is an improvement necessarily.

Still, I am intrigued....the lack of c loop, massive throw, the simple releases with no leash....that's interesting. I like the attitude of shaking the tree, see what falls out.


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:36 am 
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This isn't completely new here.
Naish had the UDS bar back in around 2003. It was my all time favorite bar. It had a big ball that you pulled to flag the kite, and another for a push away release. I think it may have been the very first push away system out there. Plus there was no leash. The chicken loop was useless though and just added weight. Remove it from the system and it's pretty much the same. Also, the trim strap was totally unessasary since there was such a hugh depower throw.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC-11uTXNvY


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:13 am 
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herbert wrote:
Slappysan wrote:
Having to land your kite to adjust the trim seems like it would be a deal breaker for me but you never know until you try it.


I think the main thing is, you don't really need to adjust your trim. I am now using the second knot for both of my kites in whatever winds. If I were to change the trim knot setting it would only be if I changed the kite. But even then, I am not even changing it. The main variation is going to be related to seat or waist harness and your arm length and the general feel of it for each individual. You are not really trimming the kite I would say, so much as choosing a preferred position for where full sheet-in sits....something that has not been offered before. It is kind of like adjusting seat height on a bicycle or steering wheel position in a car.

With other bars, you move the trim strap, it changes what the trim on the kite is at full sheet-in position. With the Cloud CS, the trim on the kite at full sheet-position never changes. Always four equal length lines to the kite at that point. You just find a setup for where that point of four equal line sits out from your spreader bar.

I moved it around the first 8 or 9 times to check out what I wanted. Now I am settled on one.
I think it might be more accurate to describe it as: Now that you can adjust a bar system to suit your personal fit, you don't need an auxiliary trim system, the trim with the bar movement is suddenly all you need, as it should have been all along. With the customized sizing, adjusting trim at full sheet-in has been rendered superfluous. The headline should read "Trim straps rendered obsolete."

I had been watching the development as much as I could see from the website (since I had the kites). I kind of thought it would be cool. Now I realize if someone asked me while I was flying with the old system...wouldn't it be nice to have some kind of system in which the trim of the kite is always the same relative to any given arm position and extension, and regardless of the wind and how fast it changes or your need to change the kite trim and your power, you can do it simply by moving the bar within a very comfortable range? Period. I had not somehow expected that...but that is what it is.


I would have expected that you would change the trim connection based on whether the wind was at the top of the range of the kite or the bottom.
It has been common for many years to connect the rear lines to different knots at the kite if the wind is near the top of the kite's range or the bottom. This trim system in a way does the same thing, so I'm surprised that you only use one knot.
I'm guessing you set it so your arms are comfortable in strong wind and pull the bar closer if its a light wind day?


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:57 am 
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Thats it. I put in an order for one.
:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:13 am 
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juandesooka wrote:

And horns to wrap lines the "old" way...I understand the new way offers a reasonable alternative, but I don't really see why that is an improvement necessarily.



Last week I had a slack rear line loop around the end of my Cab 2013 bar and there is a large bulge at the end of the bar. I spotted it just as the line tightened and the kite was going into the loop. I tried to get the line off but the bulge made it difficult, so the kite looped over and hit the beach. Maybe with the BRM bar I could have got the line off in time.

The BRM bar looks less 'snaggable' and winder ends add weight. I think I am like most people in that I can see that if you get used to the bar and how to wrap it, get used to unspinning without a stopper, get used to looping the kite the other way to remove any twists, it wouldn't seem a problem, but when you are not used to doing that, it looks inconvenient.

For the wrapping, as a trade-off, you get the lighter bar and less risk of snagging.

For no stopper, you get the option of a safe level of depower just by letting go of the bar and unrestricted sheeting.

For no swivel instead of the ring, you get another 3cm? of sheeting range.

It depends on whether in practice you would miss the on-the-fly trim given enough sheeting range. I'm going to wait and see how the feedback is on that. I don't think its worth modifying a spreader bar unless I think it would be necessary, and it would be a much better solution if a cleat is not needed.

As you say, there is always the possibility of having a a cleat below the releases. Letting go of the control bar and pulling the centrelines above the release would make it easy enough to use.
eg. by welding 2 mounting nuts onto a speader bar. But its more expense and hassle and is it really needed?


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Last edited by ronnie on Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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