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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:06 am 
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Posts: 50
Slappysan,
I couldn't imagine not wanting to adjust trim in the traditional way either. And I couldn't imagine wanting to change the sheet in distance to the spreader bar. This is enough of a change that I was pretty suspicious as to whether it would work. But somehow it does...and now I cannot imagine it the other way. Well, I kited for years the other way so I can imagine it....but pretty quickly I am finding I like this new way better. I don't know how many others would prefer it if they tried it..but I think it would be a lot.
Wind is always changing, powering up and down, turning, jumping, etc....the bar doesn't stay in one position long enough to get tiring regardless.
I don't have to fully stretch my arms to fully depower when landing...maybe close to it if a major squall is pushing through...but still not fully.
If I'm overpowered on a 10 at 28knots....I can fully depower without stretching....so it is not an arm issue but if the wind persists, it is a "need a smaller kite" issue...which would be the case with any bar.
All this is true whether I use the RRd or Cloud kite....but more easy to imagine with the Cloud because it seems to do it's thing...sweet spot to half power, for example...over a shorter distance of bar movement.


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:54 am
Posts: 232
Location: Vancouver, Canada
tautologies wrote:
Quote:
- When I'm flying my 10m in 28 knots I need that trim

Isn't that a sign you are on the wrong kite? :-)

My 10m is super fun to boost big air with in 28 knots, it flies just fine fully depowered in that wind. Could I switch to my 7m? Sure I could, but If I rigged the 10m for 22 knots and the wind picks up I don't want to have to come in and switch kites because my control bar can't handle it while my kite can.

Quote:
Quote:
- Why wouldn't I want to be able to adjust the natural position for my arms on the fly? don't your arms get tired holding the bar far away or close depending on the wind conditions?

You are the first I have ever heard that would choose to have wrongly trimmed kite because its uncomfortable for your arms. Why wouldn't you want to have the kite correctly trimmed?

I honestly don't know what you are talking about here. All you are doing when you trim a kite is adjusting where your arms will be with the bar. That's it.

Quote:
Quote:
- When I'm launching/landing it's nice to be able to trim the kite down without having to stretch my arms way out


I disagree...I think you are reaching here (hehe). I think you are finding reasons to keep trimming as opposed realizing you don't actually use it that much. People do ride differently though.

I think the only time I use it is if I am out the wind comes up really heavily..and then it is a matter of being able to not really that it is matter of safety or anything like that. With a long sheeting range you'd hit that spot anyway.


I think you mean to say "with long arms and a long sheeting range", my whole point was that I can depower the kite and still have a natural stance while controlling it not some awkward tip of my fingers hoping a gust doesn't come along thing.

Where I live we have a 5m (15 ft) tidal swing and because of it sometimes we have to walk out about 500m. That takes over 10 minutes with a kite. I assure you it's much more comfortable to do that walk with my trim strap pulled in.

This might not be a big issue on the Cloud because it has a much shorter throw range than traditional kites but I'm considering this for non-Cloud kites.


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:43 pm
Posts: 53
The Clouds have a very short bar throw so the bar is totally appropriate for the kites it was designed for and no need for an on water trim system. I'm sure the bar would work for any short throw kite but... unless you understand the dynamics of your kites (long throw / short throw / hi v / low v /single line flag etc), its certainly not appropriate to try any new bar on a different kite.

Awesome bar and I hope the price comes down as its hard to pass up 2013+ Slingshot Compsticks being sold for $150 - $250.


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 3029
[quote="Slappysan]

I think you mean to say "with long arms and a long sheeting range", my whole point was that I can depower the kite and still have a natural stance while controlling it not some awkward tip of my fingers hoping a gust doesn't come along thing.

Where I live we have a 5m (15 ft) tidal swing and because of it sometimes we have to walk out about 500m. That takes over 10 minutes with a kite. I assure you it's much more comfortable to do that walk with my trim strap pulled in.

This might not be a big issue on the Cloud because it has a much shorter throw range than traditional kites but I'm considering this for non-Cloud kites.[/quote]

I did show a way of trimming while riding at the bottom of page 3.
The BRM bar does take up a very small distance below the bar with the 2 releases. That leaves more line that could be trimmed with a cleat if found necessary with another kite.

It would require tack welding the two nuts onto a spreader bar, unscrewing the screws and removing the cleat. I drilled the holes out very slightly and used 6mm screws. Weld the nuts on. Use thread lock adhesive when screwing the cleat back on. It would also require Brummel splicing a new line onto the full kite release pin, to give the required line length.
Trimming would be - pull the upper release to slacken the line - let go of the bar - re-cleat the line - grab the bar - let the release go.

I'm just pointing out that there is a way of trimming it if you modified a spreader bar.


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:00 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 50
Ronnie,
I think your cleat on the bar idea is brilliant. I think it would work well one handed also, since you would have one hand on the center bar, sheeted way out, a slight pull on the center lines with that bar hand, and there would be almost no pressure on the line at the cleat to resist you.

I kited with the 17meter Cloud C2 and the Paipo (quite a light wind set up) in this today:


Attachment:
Screen shot 2014-08-23 at 2.05.21 PM.png
Screen shot 2014-08-23 at 2.05.21 PM.png [ 11.28 KIB | Viewed 1079 times ]



Kind of a 5 to 18 mph range I guess. I flew the kite higher during the higher winds for sure, but never came close to needing to fully extend my arms. The bar position moved of course....but never felt too far out or too far in. And this, too a substantial degree, is due exactly to what you said...the great change in kite behavior with a lesser amount of bar movement for the Clouds.

I like flying the Clouds so much that I didn't really want to go back to my other kites again to test. Hoping others would. But I will look for some wind that is really a bit too high for my 13.5 RRD and give it a go. What I can say is, in regular conditions with that kite and the BRM CS, the canopy flattened between the struts and the rear lines went slack well before I reached full extension. That is to say, I think it would work fine for your walk. I think, not I know. More testing needed to be sure.

If one has quite short arms and a waist harness that has ridden up 6 inches...maybe that could be a challenge (as it can also with a bar that loses range of motion when trimmed way in). Because I can get the Cloud kites to depower both more fully and more immediately than my others....my waist harness riding up is much less of a concern...ie. not a concern. A gust I feel mostly in the bar....the bar goes right out...and I get no harness tug.

You know...continuing the slight aside conversation...Cloud/ CS riders are thinking drift, fast, and stuff like that. The person I want to give a 9m Cloud with a CS bar set on the closest knot and with a well secured seat harness is that kiter we have all seen: The 105 pound 5'2" woman who launches a kite and is flying down the sand overpowered and struggling to pull a trim strap and even after pulled in is struggling due to her limited reach. Giving an extra 5 inches of throw to that person....plus a kite that will depower more than any other with that extra 5 inches out...seems like a safer proposition to me. Just a thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:46 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 3029
herbert wrote:
Ronnie,
I think your cleat on the bar idea is brilliant. I think it would work well one handed also, since you would have one hand on the center bar, sheeted way out, a slight pull on the center lines with that bar hand, and there would be almost no pressure on the line at the cleat to resist you.

I kited with the 17meter Cloud C2 and the Paipo (quite a light wind set up) in this today:


Attachment:
Screen shot 2014-08-23 at 2.05.21 PM.png



Kind of a 5 to 18 mph range I guess. I flew the kite higher during the higher winds for sure, but never came close to needing to fully extend my arms. The bar position moved of course....but never felt too far out or too far in. And this, too a substantial degree, is due exactly to what you said...the great change in kite behavior with a lesser amount of bar movement for the Clouds.

I like flying the Clouds so much that I didn't really want to go back to my other kites again to test. Hoping others would. But I will look for some wind that is really a bit too high for my 13.5 RRD and give it a go. What I can say is, in regular conditions with that kite and the BRM CS, the canopy flattened between the struts and the rear lines went slack well before I reached full extension. That is to say, I think it would work fine for your walk. I think, not I know. More testing needed to be sure.

If one has quite short arms and a waist harness that has ridden up 6 inches...maybe that could be a challenge (as it can also with a bar that loses range of motion when trimmed way in). Because I can get the Cloud kites to depower both more fully and more immediately than my others....my waist harness riding up is much less of a concern...ie. not a concern. A gust I feel mostly in the bar....the bar goes right out...and I get no harness tug.

You know...continuing the slight aside conversation...Cloud/ CS riders are thinking drift, fast, and stuff like that. The person I want to give a 9m Cloud with a CS bar set on the closest knot and with a well secured seat harness is that kiter we have all seen: The 105 pound 5'2" woman who launches a kite and is flying down the sand overpowered and struggling to pull a trim strap and even after pulled in is struggling due to her limited reach. Giving an extra 5 inches of throw to that person....plus a kite that will depower more than any other with that extra 5 inches out...seems like a safer proposition to me. Just a thought.


Hi Herbert,

I was quoting Slappysan in regards to the walk etc., but I have occasionally had a 400m walk to the water's edge from where I launch.

The cleat as shown is 1:1.
I don't think it is going to be practical to do it one-handed unless there is very little power from the kite.

I think we will just have to wait and see what people's experience is of using the BRM bar with other kites to see if trim-on-the-fly is preferred to trim through sheeting range. I guess it also requires using it for long enough so that it becomes 'which is better' instead of 'which am I used to'.
It could depend on the geometry of the kiter as well as the kite - as you suggested.

My other kites flag to two front lines, so the BRM bar unfortunately would not suit them.


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:47 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:43 pm
Posts: 53
ronnie wrote:
My other kites flag to two front lines, so the BRM bar unfortunately would not suit them.


Just an FYI - Some two front line flag kites will also flag to a single line. As an example, Cabrinha as publicly confirmed 2014/2015 bars (single line flag) are compatible with their earlier kites (two front line flag).


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 3029
longbeachrider wrote:
ronnie wrote:
My other kites flag to two front lines, so the BRM bar unfortunately would not suit them.


Just an FYI - Some two front line flag kites will also flag to a single line. As an example, Cabrinha as publicly confirmed 2014/2015 bars (single line flag) are compatible with their earlier kites (two front line flag).


True - but I prefer the IDS for the drift launching and packdown properties.
I accept that flagging to one front line is safer in a real emergency but I get the other benefits many times and hope to never have a real emergency where it would make a difference. I can always let the kite go if it did.


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:04 am
Posts: 20
Location: Trenton, Ontario, Canada
Just got my bar the other day, looks pretty cool. Even had a personal message from Greg on the packaging, a very nice guy. Worth buying from BRM, just for the experience of getting to know him.

Looking forward to trying it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Boardriding Maui CS Bar Review (no chicken loop or leash
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:54 am
Posts: 10
My observations using bar more (with 7m and 9m clouds):
1. Not a single time did found a need for depower strap, even being way overpowered on 9m when wind suddenly started to nuke, I had kite high, but with sweet spot easily within reach.
2. I adjusted to Greg's wrapping method without any problems.
3. Just for a sake of it tried line wrapping in the water with kite depowered (bar out) , but not flagged - easy, just wrap 2-4 times on one end and then cross to the other.
4. My wife transitioned to cloud+CS straight after 3+3hrs lessons, in one hour of adjusting to short depower (sweet spot) she asked my why ids bar have to be so complicated.
5. Lines indeed twists after looping, small and light bellow the bar swivel would be nice as an option.
6. Tether launch is easy, I'm carrying second (first now) leash on the back to attach my board in case of self rescue, so I used it to self launch.


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