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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Judging Discussions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:31 pm 
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So here comes in the definition of risk. Risk to injury, personal safety etc or risk in terms of the difficulty In pulling off the move successfully within a completion environment where you can lose valuable time if you drop your board etc.

In my mind the risk profile should be balanced between the two.

It is worth tinkering around with the judging for a while to see what manifests from riders as they will ride to score what is valued ultimately.

...you'd rather do a 1080 forward roll board off in overpowered conditions than a loop...really? So much more room for error and consequences on the first in my mind...

I will be proven wrong when I see competitors doing the former over the latter...or is that driven by judgement value of a move.

We will see I suppose.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Judging Discussions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:50 pm 
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Sinthoras1 wrote:
Just to get things straight: Let's say we have 2 riders, jumping exactly to the same height. Rider 1 takes his board between the legs and makes a handle pass megaloop. Definitely a high risk factor, especially since no one even tried it before. Now comes rider 2 and makes a normal megaloop but so near to the beach, that a gust would shoot him on itl. Rider 2 should be the winner and it's not even close as he was seriously risking his life.


Im pretty sure when using risk to assign a score to a move in a comp it has nothing to do with risks the rider adds to the equation with things like proximity to the beach or other riders etc. Its the risk inherent in the move itself that would also obviously be affected by amplitude, height, power, wind etc.

The argument "why don't we just go back to 2 line kites with no release and no leash" is a red herring argument. Risk as a judging criteria is about pushing the sport to its limit within the context of world class riding, not regression for the sake of added risk.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Judging Discussions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:37 am 
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My judging opinion is that with the footage shown - that kiteloop smoked the board offs - due to speed aggression and risk (only just caught in time!). Like I say tho the fast double front was pretty cool.

kite size does effect risk too - and that has to be a consideration also


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Judging Discussions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:05 am 
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Westozzy wrote:
In my mind the risk profile should be balanced between the two.

It is worth tinkering around with the judging for a while to see what manifests from riders as they will ride to score what is valued ultimately.

I guess that's what they intended with risk. If all the judges balance the two definitions differently it also explains wy they come to very different conclusions for a rider like Toby who doesn't want to hurt himself but takes huge risks to loose valuable time when doing his boardflips etc.

Yes I think they are still tinkering around. The extreme focus on height and risk might be their answer to the highly technical main event and to get even more extreme than KOTA. Hope they keep the judging balanced. The variety of tricks is what I like most in KOTA. When judging is unbalanced riders will do just the tricks that are overrated. That's why I liked it that Langeree, a rider that performed loops and board offs won this years KOTA.

About the material: We saw a bunch of 2 line kites making hundreds of meters in height in the early days. Many riders where dying because of this. Yes they had a very narrow wind range, but that doesn't really matter too much in a 20 minutes heat in which you have a set of kites on the beach. My guess is that once kite companies start to develop pure jumping machines again they will come up with special big air kites that fly over 100m. Todays pros should be able to handle it and come down with kiteloops. The risk factor would still be huge.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Judging Discussions
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:14 pm 
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Toby wrote:
Talking about risk factor, a head judge told me, that a Kiteloop will count more than a Front 1080 Boardoff, because it is a higher risk.

I am sure all judges can do a Kiteloop with a 7, 9 etc in 30 knots. And none can do a 1080 Boardoff.

A kiteloops needs balls, once, then you know how it works and it is just pulling the bar.

I have many friends who do kiteloops, and cannot even do a boardoff.

Really, more risk to land that trick? :o

Interesting where this discussion will lead to next year...



Toby, No disrespect, but your style is the Safer route in kite boarding. You're skill set is impressive but risk must be calculated into the judging. Smaller kites are harder to do tricks on, you've stated this yourself. You're style of kite boarding requires A lot less kite control than other riding styles which is probably factored into the judging as well. If kiteloops are just pulling the bar, maybe you should bust some out. There isn't really much of a risk doing a board off. If you fuck it up, just chuck the board. If you mess up a loop- different story. I think doing a dead man is much less scary and easier than looping. Your starting to sound like a poor sport and it is very unbecoming of you.


Using the crowds' noise level to determine the outcome of pro competition is the dumbest idea ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Judging Discussions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:37 am 
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At one point you should please the crowd. There has been mistakes in other sports, we should learn from those mistakes.
And there is the chance to show it all, that is the right way.
You will see what happens in 2015...and if there are changes, intelligent people did those...far away from being dumb.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Judging Discussions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:54 pm 
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Risk factor sounds like carnage, which is not a very sophisticated form of entertainment, more guts and no brain. Kitesurfers are not gladiators. Yes, entertainment factor is far more important than risk factor, because it brings money, support, and safety!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Judging Discussions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:10 pm 
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AirBunny wrote:
Yes, entertainment factor is far more important than risk factor, because it brings money, support, and safety!!!

Entertainment factor is risk factor... no risk, no entertainment (in general). Nobody comes for safety!


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Judging Discussions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:13 pm 
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Nobody comes if they don't understand the risks involved. Then they are not entertained. We can play the semantics game all day. Money talks bullshit walks. And crowds whether in situ or through various coverage mediums bring dollars. Not too much money in women's hockey. Plenty in tennis and they only play best of three, wonder why? It's like an accomplished guitarist playing to a crowd of three, and they are all guitarist themselves going wow he's good! Guitarist then goes home to get some sleep to start his day job.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Judging Discussions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:09 pm 
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Without corporeal risk, degree of difficulty in any sport becomes trivial.

Even sports that highly favour the artistic such as figure skating and Synchronized diving must delineate their scoring on the basis of risk.

Once you get away from the concept of risk, you venture purely into the realm of the artistic. If there is a market for it, great. Organize an airstyle hangout tour but so far that market has not emerged. From the look of it, attendance to the one in Egypt was underwhelming and from what video there was, the level of competition quite low.


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