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 Post subject: Re: Spots Closed by Beginners and Accidents
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:34 pm 
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william_rx7 wrote:
Quote:
what you are trying to achieve with this thread?


I'm trying to expose the myth that we're all just "one accident" away from our spots being closed.

This myth is perpetuated by "beach-troll kite police" types (and Dr. Evel), and ruins the vibe at kite spots all over the world.


I really don't need another --dyyylan-- to be bad-mouthing me on this forum ; so "Please"
don't take this the wrong way .

Look at your next post here :

william_rx7 wrote:
I bet you're a blast to go riding with.
...


It kinda sums up the mentality of a Lot of kiters ; there like the local surfer,
in that there Vibe or feeling ,is Way more important than the actual reality of what's
gonna happen, if things aren't cleaned up in the kite boarding seen.

Unless a national club is formed, and It is NOT privately owned, but owned by
all it's members ,with an actual rating for the members that
specifies what there ability is ; No way will kite boarding , (as a sport) will be
around in the USA for much more than another 10-years. Along with that rating
comes the ability to use beaches of various technical abilities needed to be
allowed to kite there.

And YES -- the rating will also come with a mandatory insurance policy.

Basically if you LOOSE your rating, and get kicked out of the club ; you
can FORGET about ever kite boarding in the USA again !!

Where am i coming up with this Shit ?

This is Exactly how the club works for ALL the HG and PG pilots in the
USA ; and are covered for liability with an ins policy.
http://www.ushpa.aero/

You Need a club rating just to fly .
If you get kicked out of our club, for doing anything that could get
a flying aria shut down ; forget about ever flying again, and go sell all your gear !!
It's called the USHPA.

Now How does That , fit along with your Vibe ?

Back to --dyyylan--
He thinks it's just FINE, that i almost got Killed because some jack-ass pulled
his QR and didn't have a leash attached to his kite. Shit like that simply wouldn't
happen if a club were dictating the safety features needed on there users equipment,
instead of some , "could give a shit Dick" , that could care less about others. :nono:

Hope Ya don't Hate me for saying that ; but your gonna Hate it a LOT more, if
when kite-spots start shutting down all across the nation, (like i Think they will) !!

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Spots Closed by Beginners and Accidents
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:20 am 
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Location: TO
Bille:
If a club would help create fewer "kite police" and more community, I'm all for it. More community is good for kiting, and good for the overall sport "vibe". "Vibe" is important, without it we're just a bunch of grumpy old men in smelly neoprene, arguing via keyboards.

I agree, it's time to look at what's worked for other sports communities, and how we can adapt it to kiting. The local sheriff model sucks for everyone.

I'm a former member of the Access Fund climbing organization, I think they are a great model of a sports advocacy organization. Clearly climbing is a different sport, and different issues, but they have an impressive organizational model, industry involvement, partnerships with local access groups and track record of success.


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 Post subject: Re: Spots Closed by Beginners and Accidents
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:32 am 
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Its proactive (learning from the experiences)/ community/self responsibility (inclusive - everyone can have an opinion)/open source

vs dirty politics (telling people to delete threads - while u have a conflict of interest in selling the very information you are asking people to delete) and trying to represent people that don't necessarily want or need representation

u make your choice...

Fact is tho it's not 2002 it's 2014 and finding this information is really not rocket science and what a quick google shows is that in 14 years there have been very few accidents to 3rd parties involving kiters. Kiters are a pretty responsible group in general I reckon.

If you live in a country where you are not allowed to hurt yourself without authority intervention -as a possible byproduct of enjoying your sport then - just ban everything.... stay at home and read kiteforum all day and night... or move to a country with more freedom

We share the beaches with other recreational users - show respect, show responsibility, be honest.

The problem with many kite organisations/clubs is that they are often run with commercial conflicts of interests or by those that are really not the kind of people you want running them.

Self responsibility and local community, that is where it is at.

"world governing body of kiteboarding" - yeah whatever lol!


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 Post subject: Re: Spots Closed by Beginners and Accidents
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:59 am 
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ronnie wrote:
RedSky wrote:
Toby wrote:
I think it already happened several times in the past!

Wasn't there an accident with a kid that got lifted from the lines on a UK beach?



Yeah. A kitesurfer trying to solo land her kite on the beach managed to get a 3yr old kid caught in the lines and lofted him! As a result the council banned kite buggying forever. Go figure.


Are you sure the ban wasn't because of a death from a collision by a land yacht?


I'm certain they were both separate incidents, both resulting in bans. The land yacht accident was deeply sad.


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 Post subject: Re: Spots Closed by Beginners and Accidents
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:58 am 
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TROLLING :argue:


Last edited by madworld on Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Spots Closed by Beginners and Accidents
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:14 am 
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what, authority from the kitepolice ? lol


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 Post subject: Re: Spots Closed by Beginners and Accidents
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:16 am 
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longwhitecloud wrote:
Its proactive (learning from the experiences)/ community/self responsibility (inclusive - everyone can have an opinion)/open source
...


Awesome philosophical idealism !! :thumb:

longwhitecloud wrote:
If you live in a country where you are not allowed to hurt yourself without authority intervention -as a possible byproduct of enjoying your sport then - just ban everything.... stay at home and read kiteforum all day and night... or move to a country with more freedom
...


I "Do" Hurt myself ; a Lot !!
It's Why i wanna take up a more passive sport than hang gliding. Kite boarding
definitely fits the need ; Fun , and not too stupid with good odds for survival, if Ya
use some common sense !

longwhitecloud wrote:
We share the beaches with other recreational users - show respect, show responsibility, be honest.

The problem with many kite organisations/clubs is that they are often run with commercial conflicts of interests or by those that are really not the kind of people you want running them.

Self responsibility and local community, that is where it is at.

"world governing body of kiteboarding" - yeah whatever lol!


It's that Respect part ; humans have a hard time at. Too many Dicks ; and they're
multiplying like rabbits , (No way to get rid of them All) !! Some country's probably
don't need a club like this ; the USA Does, Maybe it's because were made-up
from a hodgepodge of different races , from a bunch of different country's ?

OK -- i hope i don't screw this up :

* Remove the commercialism from the proposed club .
** Vote on your local representatives ; they fuck-up then vote in someone else.
*** Everyone agrees on a set of rules that Everyone can live/deal with.

What Ya end up with, is a self governing organization , that Everyone has a voice in.
Locals still run there own spots ; but now they got some Meat behind there concerns
for people that don't give a shit. It's Exactly how the USHPA is run.

Some Kook shows up ; just point to the sign that says :
"$1000 fine, if caught kite boarding without your license" .

To get that license ; Ya got to show you actually CAN kite. The more difficult
the spot ; the more write-offs you need. Screw-up , and that license gets suspended
for a while.

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Spots Closed by Beginners and Accidents
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:01 am 
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+100 Billie! Some Kiters really think it impresses people to come in Close to swimmers and show their Tricks. I got news for Em. People don't give a Rats Butt about some FAN BOY showing off. Same as someone having No baffles in their Motorcycle exhaust or their Car. The only person it impresses is the One making all the Noise !

There is plenty of Water and Space out there. Don't Screw up Sites for the rest of us who Don't need Affirmation that we are Cool or feel we need Attention.

Now we need to work on the NUTS that think Kites Scare Birds!! What a load of BULLWASH!!!

:happybirthday: :happybirthday: :happybirthday: :happybirthday: :desperado: :desperado: :desperado: :desperado: :housewife: :housewife: :kiff: :kiff: :tv: :tv:

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 Post subject: Re: Spots Closed by Beginners and Accidents
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:22 pm 
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Location: Southwestern Ontario
william_rx7 wrote:
Bille:
If a club would help create fewer "kite police" and more community, I'm all for it. More community is good for kiting, and good for the overall sport "vibe". "Vibe" is important, without it we're just a bunch of grumpy old men in smelly neoprene, arguing via keyboards.

I agree, it's time to look at what's worked for other sports communities, and how we can adapt it to kiting. The local sheriff model sucks for everyone.

I'm a former member of the Access Fund climbing organization, I think they are a great model of a sports advocacy organization. Clearly climbing is a different sport, and different issues, but they have an impressive organizational model, industry involvement, partnerships with local access groups and track record of success.


Over here in SWO (SWO kiteboarding) we have that exact thing, a club or I call it a community, and within our conversations (on facebook groups, google groups, and on the beach) it is often encouraged to nudge people who are doing things which may endanger others to rethink what they are doing. Maybe what is going on over in TO is the same thing, maybe you are just not a part of that discussion therefore it seems as if these people are self appointed beach police...? We talk about incidents, how they went and how it could have been handled differently in improve the outcome.
Bottom line is it requires a set of skills to handle a situation where you have to ask someone who obviously has no clue or doesn't care (that they are endangering others and putting our access at risk) to see things the way the community does.
The best way to achieve this is to create a good user base, grow it to include as many people in the area as you can and then make sure you grab the newbs as they come along and get them aware of the group and signed on. This gives everyone a sense of belonging and it gives us access to influence peoples behavior/actions at the "community" launches.
It could be the local user group in TO is doing a poor job of including everyone.
Now if you are talking about what is going on on Lake Simcoe... different story, the locals have already been bitten once (non local kiters misbehaving and over running), they will protect their access aggressively, right or wrong, it is difficult to win against a group that has everything to lose and have proof that it can happen.
Pete


Last edited by Laughingman on Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Spots Closed by Beginners and Accidents
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:39 pm 
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Bille wrote:
What Ya end up with, is a self governing organization , that Everyone has a voice in. Locals still run there own spots ; but now they got some Meat behind there concerns
for people that don't give a shit. It's Exactly how the USHPA is run.
Bille - I'm just reading what you prompted me to read, but perhaps this needs some clarity or explanation. According to the USHPA charter, everyone does not have a direct voice since only directors vote. The number of votes allocated to a director is based upon the number of members in that region. So an area with large concentration of pilots has more votes and influence. It seems to me, if this model were applied to kiting, that three or four areas in the U.S. would totally control the shape and nature of kiting due to this reality. I think you meant to say "locals run their own spots according to rules established by kiters in NC, CA, & Miami (or where ever)". Isn't this the reality of the USHPA?
Bille wrote:
Some Kook shows up ; just point to the sign that says :
"$1000 fine, if caught kite boarding without your license" .
Under what authority are fines levied and who has the authority to collect them on public beaches, at State or National parks or on private land? The USHPA does not do these things as far as I can tell from this "About USHPA" here: http://www.ushpa.aero/aboutus.asp
USHPA wrote:
The USHPA, as a private membership organization, has no governmental authority, does not own any flying sites, does not negotiate nor enter into any permits for flying sites, does not control any flying sites or the flying that takes place at them. The sports of hang gliding and paragliding are not controlled by the USHPA; anyone that wishes can fly.
This all feels like an overlord/fiefdom scenario where the overlord (the areas with the most trouble, controversy and regulation) force servitude and allegiance unto all other areas as a direct result of the overlord's problems and not the fiefee's problems. The 20 USHPA lords (directors) make the rules you live by everywhere in the country...right? Oh, I do get it - namely that the directors are representatives of the fiefs. Just like in feudal times. Or just like Washington.

Please clarify how a very small kiting community, full of good folks, benefits from paying dues (taxes to the lord) while suffering all the unintended side effects. A sampling might include putting all the current instructors out of work (they would not be qualified to teach without paying more money) and putting even more fiscal pressure on local shops where folks would be discouraged from "giving it a shot". All this and more without a representative voice due to the very small size of the community.


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