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Again Fatality in South of France

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nikalaitzian
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Re: Again Fatality in South of France

Postby nikalaitzian » Thu May 28, 2015 4:40 pm

Toby wrote:I really wonder who has fun in winds from 20 gusting to 40 knots?

Once I stopped kiting in Fuerteventura, in Sotavento, since the wind was so gusty. I preferred to work 3 days instead of kiting, after I jumped, and the gust was gone, and I fell down like a stone, my head hit the sandy ground in shallow water...imagine it would have been harder surface.

If you have to go out in these winds, make sure surroundings are very safe. No obstacles, deep water, safe launch and landing.

Bille, I think your comparison is awesome! This IS the problem in the sport!!!

Paragliders know the risk and are super cautious, because this is HOW THEY LEARN IT !

The majority of kite instructions are just bad and they care only to get the people riding asap...no matter talking about risks, weather, being safe etc.
enough said Toby.... this is a post i made on my Facebook before 1 week.... the answers were frustrating from many people that they play the "instructors"

Having an experience of almost 15years in kiteboarding and been an instructor for more that 8 years with more than 300 students under my belt i can tell you one thing for sure.YOU CANT kite "safe" with 8 hours of training as many "instructors" promise you.You must be very talented and the conditions super safe(flat,waist deep water,moderate steady side-shore winds) to kite safe.Drowning is a 5 seconds situation!!!!
Ps.i got no IKO "shit"
Last edited by nikalaitzian on Fri May 29, 2015 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thor SFBay
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Re: Again Fatality in South of France

Postby Thor SFBay » Thu May 28, 2015 6:13 pm

Bille wrote:
Thor SFBay wrote: ...
... People die slipping in bath tubs so maybe you should rethink taking a shower every day. And whatever you do - DON"T DRIVE YOUR CAR!!!! 30,000 people die every year in car crashes in the USA.
Most all the reply's to my question, (so far) have bin rather well thought-out , and appear
to be genuine , with little cynicism . :thumb:

Nothing personal here --Thor SFBay--
but
before anyone else, tries to make me out to be some kind of potato-chip eating
TV watcher, that's afraid to go outside out of fear of being injured ; Ya might
wanna know what i was doing at the beginning of May this year :

A few weeks ago
I was flying my new Hang glider for 5 days in a row, for 3 hours a day. Every day i sat
near a mile over the ground ; but to get up there, i had to spend nearly 1/3 to 1/2 of that time
turning 360's at up to 45-deg bank angle, while tracking a thermal up the side of a 3,500-ft
vertical Mt , and usually within 10 to 40-ft of a cliff .
The blood in my veins, Burned from all the adrenaline !!

Cutting to the point of my question , was to find out if you guys feel the same
situational awareness as i do, when i'm flying ; especially if Ya know you could
get hurt if you don't push the pulse-rate a bit , when needed ?

Personally , i believe most people that died this year , were simply unaware
of there surroundings ; and that could be due to training , Or ego ; the ego telling
them that they can indeed, handle what there being faced with at the time. If that
is true ; how do we stop it ?

From another Thread, there is a guy that thinks he doesn't need a helmet because
some Pro rider doesn't use one ; same Thread , another dude is cutting
down people who wear sunglasses , because it simply doesn't fit in that COOL category.
How do Ya stop that kind of , (BS) and still get through to them ? I am WAY too
abrupt with my personality to do that ; and it's why i'm asking ?

Bille
What you are asking is, how do you get humans to stop being stupid. I'm surprised that you've been around this long and still ask that question. The answer is - you can't. You can learn from their mistakes and you can try to help people when you can. That's all you can do.

Of course smart kiters evaluate the situation and decide what size kite to pump up and whether or not to even go out. Situational awareness is way more important than helmets or safety gear. It's always better to not crash than to rely on seat belts, air bags, helmets, etc.

My somewhat sarcastic response to you was based on how you seemed to be saying that kiting is too dangerous because a small handful of people made some dumb mistakes and died. Maybe I misunderstood your point. If you are just asking how to prevent people from being dumb, then all I can say is that you can't. Or if you are saying that situational awareness is important, then yes, I can agree. But lots of people aren't aware of their surroundings even when they put down their stupid Iphones...

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Re: Again Fatality in South of France

Postby RickI » Thu May 28, 2015 6:16 pm

I am sorry for the man's loss and the horrific scene his family witnessed during the accident. I wish we could turn the clock back, intercede and avoid the whole thing.

This reminds me of some of the harsher learning experiences years back during the earlier parts of the traditional C kite days. Sometimes people would just "do it" without appreciating what a squall (thunderstorm), too much or excessively gusty wind might do to them. Even worse doing so with the wrong sized kite and insufficient experience.

It took years to try to get people to appreciate the hazards of dangerous winds and weather. Eventually, many started to take notice, helped along by all the accidents sometimes including people they knew. It was and still is tragic but sometimes people need convincing in harsh direct ways that go beyond simple reasoning.

Today, the "magic bullet" of perceived major depowering in excessive winds (pronounced lulls included) along with insufficient appreciation of the risks present are causing harm and tragically in the same old ways.

Coined an expression a long while back which unfortunately still applies. The kiting community needs to continue to promote hazard awareness, appreciation and avoidance. It can dog most of us at times, myself included, but with effort through the kiting community, we should be able to get the word out. There may always be people who take themselves out in this way but I have to believe with more work in this area, fewer might fall victim. Two in such a short time and in the same area is a very bad thing, for access, the reputation of the sport and things in general. We need to do a better job of getting the word out, talking about it online, at the beach, in magazines, retailers and on.

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Re: Again Fatality in South of France

Postby Bille » Thu May 28, 2015 7:42 pm

Bille wrote:That is Sad !!
I think this fatality, makes 6 kiters, that have lost their life in 2015 ?
If i'm correct ; that is more deaths this year, than both Hang gliding and Paragliding
combined .

The only reason i started to kite board, was to find a sport that was a bit safer than
when i'm flying on a HG , or PG ; apparently i was wrong about that , and it would
be good to figure out "WHY" i was wrong ?

This is a rather delicate question that Needs answering ; and
there's no disrespect intended :

Kite boarding is a rather benign sport , compared to all the ways i can die , while
gliding ; could it have something to do with training , or is it the mentality and EGO of
the sport enthusiast , that's to blame for the difference in the kill ratio between flying
and kiting , so far this year ?

Bille
Thor SFBay wrote: ...

My somewhat sarcastic response to you was based on how you seemed to be saying that kiting is too dangerous because a small handful of people made some dumb mistakes and died. Maybe I misunderstood your point.
...
.
I reread my quote above ; and can't find where i said that kiting is dangerous ? I actually
referred to kite boarding ; as a rather benign sport , a bit safer than what i normally do .

be·nign
bəˈnīn/
adjective
adjective: benign
1. gentle; kindly.
OR otherwise , harmless

Bille

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Re: Again Fatality in South of France

Postby matth » Thu May 28, 2015 7:49 pm

RickI wrote:I am sorry for the man's loss and the horrific scene his family witnessed during the accident. I wish we could turn the clock back, intercede and avoid the whole thing.

This reminds me of some of the harsher learning experiences years back during the earlier parts of the traditional C kite days. Sometimes people would just "do it" without appreciating what a squall (thunderstorm), too much or excessively gusty wind might do to them. Even worse doing so with the wrong sized kite and insufficient experience.

It took years to try to get people to appreciate the hazards of dangerous winds and weather. Eventually, many started to take notice, helped along by all the accidents sometimes including people they knew. It was and still is tragic but sometimes people need convincing in harsh direct ways that go beyond simple reasoning.

Today, the "magic bullet" of perceived major depowering in excessive winds (pronounced lulls included) along with insufficient appreciation of the risks present are causing harm and tragically in the same old ways.

Coined an expression a long while back which unfortunately still applies. The kiting community needs to continue to promote hazard awareness, appreciation and avoidance. It can dog most of us at times, myself included, but with effort through the kiting community, we should be able to get the word out. There may always be people who take themselves out in this way but I have to believe with more work in this area, fewer might fall victim. Two in such a short time and in the same area is a very bad thing, for access, the reputation of the sport and things in general. We need to do a better job of getting the word out, talking about it online, at the beach, in magazines, retailers and on.

Sadly most people don't seem very interested when you talk about safety. I post things on my local site here in Mass often and get little to no response. If you asked most kiters how many people died last year kiting , they would guess one or two.

This sad news actually stuck a fork in my kiting yesterday. It was a very windy and gusty day and I was not in the mood to deal with it.

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Re: Again Fatality in South of France

Postby plummet » Thu May 28, 2015 8:19 pm

I guess the big take away out of this for us experienced kiters out our local. Particularly if it is extreme weather or extreme location is, if possible, talk to every new face that appears on the beach. Let them know the local hazards. Try and discern their skill level and make a recommendation on kite size or weather they have should fly or not that day.

In this instance would the guy have launched if a local had a conversation with him stating that someone died here 2 months ago flying an over sized kite. you should not be launching that kite?

If locals had that conversation and the guy launched anyway.... well I guess he has to take responsibility for his own actions. Harsh but true. Perhaps a conversation with the wife? Would she launch her husband if you were telling her that people die flying over powered kites at this location?

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Re: Again Fatality in South of France

Postby chemosavi » Fri May 29, 2015 12:12 am

Lots of talk around here of stupid decisions and chip eating TV watchers.

Both of which I sometimes enjoy with great satisfaction.

Someday I wanna be smart and strong and be able to handle the big gusty winds.

Maybe not. There's some great shows on TV I would hate to miss......

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Re: Again Fatality in South of France

Postby mbs » Fri May 29, 2015 5:17 am

Terrible accident and I feel for his wife and family.

If any good can come out of these tragedies it gets us all thinking of how to avoid winding up in.a similar situation. One thing that I think bears mentioning...

In both of these recent accidents the victims were from out of town. i have also travelled to many different countries to kite. When hauling kite gear through airports etc, the decision making may be influenced by the fact that you have come a long way and hauled your gear a long way and you want to get out there and use it in the limited time window you have. I am not saying this is right, I'm just thinking about the psychology that may have been underlying this man's poor decision making. For instance, had he been at his home launch, he might have just turned around and gone home and not tried to ride in conditions that were too gusty and with a kite that was obviously too big. But when you have come a long way and hauled gear through airports, to turn around and not go out is a much greater letdown.

We should all be aware of this when traveling and not let the eagerness to get out there color the decision making process about weather the launch is suitable, or weather the conditions are suitable and safe. When coming to someplace new it is important to TALK TO THE LOCAL RIDERS before riding in an unfamiar spot. Introduce yourself, ask questions about their spot, learn if there are any local rules or regulations, find out what sizes people are flying. If nobody is out don't go - there must be a good reason why. Either you're in the wrong spot or conditions are unfavorable for whatever reason.

Bottom line - dont try to force a session just because you've come a long way !!!

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Re: Again Fatality in South of France

Postby dimip » Fri May 29, 2015 6:59 am

and before go there must know or ask the conditions. We, locals have mainly10- 9-7m kites not bigger .Last season at the end of it we see a tourist pump 17 or 18 m something like this, huge griffin kites at 25 knots..
We have flown 9m kite at 40 knots and seen the force, but never seen a 17 m at 25 knots. The coversation was shall we lunch him and see what happens? :rollgrin: Can he not see everyone is on 9m?
Anyway when he asked to lunch, we said better not in those conditions and it's better also to loose the leash from the twin tip....

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Re: Again Fatality in South of France

Postby justbob » Fri May 29, 2015 12:01 pm

mbs wrote:Terrible accident and I feel for his wife and family.

If any good can come out of these tragedies it gets us all thinking of how to avoid winding up in.a similar situation. One thing that I think bears mentioning...

In both of these recent accidents the victims were from out of town. i have also travelled to many different countries to kite. When hauling kite gear through airports etc, the decision making may be influenced by the fact that you have come a long way and hauled your gear a long way and you want to get out there and use it in the limited time window you have. I am not saying this is right, I'm just thinking about the psychology that may have been underlying this man's poor decision making. For instance, had he been at his home launch, he might have just turned around and gone home and not tried to ride in conditions that were too gusty and with a kite that was obviously too big. But when you have come a long way and hauled gear through airports, to turn around and not go out is a much greater letdown.

We should all be aware of this when traveling and not let the eagerness to get out there color the decision making process about weather the launch is suitable, or weather the conditions are suitable and safe. When coming to someplace new it is important to TALK TO THE LOCAL RIDERS before riding in an unfamiar spot. Introduce yourself, ask questions about their spot, learn if there are any local rules or regulations, find out what sizes people are flying. If nobody is out don't go - there must be a good reason why. Either you're in the wrong spot or conditions are unfavorable for whatever reason.

Bottom line - dont try to force a session just because you've come a long way !!!
One of the hardest things to learn about this sport, knowing when your going to be in over your head. I have driven for hours shown up and decided it was too much wind quite a few times. Shitty feeling, but the next day I think, you know Bob that was a good decision you made yesterday.


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