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Above bar or below bar trim? What do you prefer?

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KYLakeKiter
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Re: Above bar or below bar trim? What do you prefer?

Postby KYLakeKiter » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:44 pm

I like the BTB trim on the compsticsks. I find that it is difficult to depower on the fly, but very easy to let back out. I have adapted my use of the trim because of this. Most ABT systems are easier to pull in on the fly. I just prefer less stuff slinging around on the centerlines.

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Mitaka
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Re: Above bar or below bar trim? What do you prefer?

Postby Mitaka » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:21 pm

KYLakeKiter wrote:I like the BTB trim on the compsticsks. I find that it is difficult to depower on the fly, but very easy to let back out. I have adapted my use of the trim because of this. Most ABT systems are easier to pull in on the fly. I just prefer less stuff slinging around on the centerlines.
:thumb:

From ergonomics point of view with ATB it is easier to 'depower' the kite and with the BTB it is easier to 'power' the kite. ATB is appropriate if you ride with normal or shorter depower throw. I find the BTB trim system better for waveriding with extended depower throw because in such a case the ATB cleat would be much too far away and not convenient to use.
edt wrote:it's almost impossible to adjust the trim while riding on below the bar. You have to stop, release some tension on the chicken line then pull in just the right place.
I have always used BTB trim system (SS and Naish) and I had difficulties to trim the kite only a few times in the very beginning until I realised that always my trouble is caused by twisted depower lines. The more twisted your lines below the swivel are - the more friction between them under tension and it is more and more difficult to make trim adjustments. With the Naish QR (where the single flagging line does not go through the QR) you can even permanently twist your flagging line around your depower lines. When you wind and unwind your lines without disconnecting them from the kite, there is a very big chance to start your next sessions with twisted depower lines below the swivel, if you do not pay attention. Before every session I make sure that both parts of the depower line together with the single flagging line go straight from the swivel through the bar to the QR and I have never difficulties when trimming.
juandesooka wrote:-- as I said I find my OR BTB depower quite hard to manage 1 handed with sliding hook. Need one hand to steady the QR handle while other pulls the rope....and I REALLY don't like letting go of my bar in a situation sketchy enough that I need to depower! A friend said that newer depower rope makes all the difference....more "slippery". Once older it gets more "grabby", harder to pull out of cleat.
I am sure that this a problem of your cleat (or your depower lines are twisted). I use a sliding ring and I never need my both hands for trim adjustment with the SS or Naish BTB QR.

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Re: Above bar or below bar trim? What do you prefer?

Postby juandesooka » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:04 am

Mitaka wrote:
juandesooka wrote:-- as I said I find my OR BTB depower quite hard to manage 1 handed with sliding hook. Need one hand to steady the QR handle while other pulls the rope....and I REALLY don't like letting go of my bar in a situation sketchy enough that I need to depower! A friend said that newer depower rope makes all the difference....more "slippery". Once older it gets more "grabby", harder to pull out of cleat.
I am sure that this a problem of your cleat (or your depower lines are twisted). I use a sliding ring and I never need my both hands for trim adjustment with the SS or Naish BTB QR.
If there's a problem with the cleat, it is grabbing the rope too aggressively ... and I don't think that can be considered a problem! The issue is that the rope will not un-seat (come out of the cleat) with the normal direction of pull. When I pull the rope, the entire c-loop and QR mechanism rotates up and back in the direction of pull....the rope won't release out of the cleat easily. This was most noticeable with my dynabar slider.

Last session I was using a steel sliding ring instead and did not notice any issues. But also my spare bar, and I suspect the depower rope is newer....more shiny, less abraded, and therefore more "slippery". It unseats more easily out of the cleat.

So there you....another BTB vs ATB recommendation ... on BTB systems, at least the OR one, change your depower rope more frequently! It's cheap and easy, and all around safer and more effective. ATB systems (at least BWS) are maybe not so easy to replace.

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Re: Above bar or below bar trim? What do you prefer?

Postby Mitaka » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:45 am

juandesooka wrote:The issue is that the rope will not un-seat (come out of the cleat) with the normal direction of pull. When I pull the rope, the entire c-loop and QR mechanism rotates up and back in the direction of pull....the rope won't release out of the cleat easily.
I have never seen an OR QR but the tension of the lines created from the kite pull should be enough to keep the QR in place when you pull the trim line in the correct direction and the rope should come out of the cleat. May be my QR also rotates slightly in this moment but my left hand is always on the bar while I am adjusting the trim line with the right hand.

There must be something wrong with the cleat, the rope, the direction of the pull or may be you are sheeting too much out and there is not enough tension in the lines to keep the QR in place during trimming?

When you use your both hands for trimming then the bar is definitely sheeted too far out (kite depowered) which explains why your QR rotates.

The fixed hook gives additional stability of the QR during trimming and naturally you have problems only when the QR is attached to the loose sliding rope.

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Re: Above bar or below bar trim? What do you prefer?

Postby bc-sf » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:55 am

I think it's been pretty much all said, but as it's on open call..

I can barely reach the ATB depower handles, and usually have to untangle them before making any adjustments. With 2 handles to pull, that is just an extra thing to remember/manage. (which is your favorite color? blue, no red!!) The pull pull handles are always flapping about and I definitely loose ground in this operation as i have to bear off and climb up/sort the lines to adjust. With all the clutter of the pull pull system, I can't always see how much trim line is pulled in. And there are only a few inches of trim possibility.

BTB line is always in reach, but if too much line pulled in it too can flap around and wrap around where it shouldn't be. Also, I've accidentally activated the QR by letting go of the depower line when re-powering (ha! lesson learned!). BTB took a little getting used to as you need some more elbow grease, and sometimes you do have to release some tension in the lines to get out of the cleat.

I haven't used ATB with cleat system yet, but look forward to demoing next season.

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Re: Above bar or below bar trim? What do you prefer?

Postby toyletbowl » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:56 am

For years and years I would use the SS compstick (BTB) for most all my kites. I like the hefty feel to it, but like most, the adjusting is hard on the fly when overpowered. Bear off and pull and no problem, but harder than ATB.

Last year, I started using the LF 2015 CPR (BTB) bar and loved it due to much more throw. I love having more throw when riding foil boards and wave riding. For twin tips, I don't need as much throw. Just grin and bear it and edge harder.

However, now that SS came out with the 2016 Sentinel (ATB) with a ton of throw, I really like this bar. Being able to move the adjustment up and down the line works really well.

Looking forward to trying the new 2016 Cabrinha and LF bars to compare.

Bob
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Re: Above bar or below bar trim? What do you prefer?

Postby cleepa » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:20 am

toyletbowl wrote:However, now that SS came out with the 2016 Sentinel (ATB) with a ton of throw, I really like this bar.
Wow, $529 for a bar :cry: That's just too much.

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Re: Above bar or below bar trim? What do you prefer?

Postby ronnie » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:27 am

I'd prefer a below the bar trim which operated by holding the bar with one hand and locking the line to the bar. Then pull the load off the below the bar section of the line and re-cleat the line on the spreader bar.

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Re: Above bar or below bar trim? What do you prefer?

Postby Hpr » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:20 pm

I battled for a while with my Liquid Force CPR BTB trim until I figured out 3 things that made my life much easier.
1. Hook up the CL with the cleat facing down instead of up. You can get much more leverage and power by pulling down and away from your upper body then pulling towards yourself.
2. I noticed that my flag line was fraying near the pulley. Next session made a point of looking up at it while adjusting trim and saw that the flag line was interfering with the pulley by getting stuck in the pulley wheel. So make sure the flag line is at right angles to the pulley.
3. Make sure to pull the stopper down before de-powering, otherwise it will ‘stop’ you from pulling in the mainline. duh


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