Its not a general thing, its more the fact, thats a hard B with double engagement like bw mixer does 0:2:3:4, leads to a strong power/depower behavior.
So conventional 0:1:2:4 mixer leads to softer development of power, which feels nice.
BW mixer works well on other anchor points but I dont gonna restich them at my A15.
Weak z is the main problem in A15 design so I focus on that (back to the beginning)...
Yes that is the problem with a linear mixer/ bridle placement relationship. By having the mixer increase camber you can have B engage before C and Z. I have written about this before. This allows less power increase while lowering the camber, giving good control in the depower range. Camber then increases to give good power.
If you go back to my original posts in this thread you will see adjusting Z was the first thing I did to this kite. The design of the kite allows shortening of Z a lot more than any other kite I have used while remaining stable. It is obviously a very stable design. I also used a WAC line to further pull Z. Managed to get quite some pull in low wind, could manage to get on plane in 3knots on a surfboard. Stability becomes a bit of an issue like that though and of course upwind which likes lower camber.
Where I am now, is not even in the same realm as just adjusting Z. I recommend you try what I have done, with dropping C, 310 mixer, changing tip bridles and some Z.
Hello. I have ordered a Pansh A15 12m.....this will be my first foil and I am VERY excited. Have read through this entire post and it is packed with excellent information.
I have a couple questions. First, could a total foil kite novice modify an A15 like foilholio recommends? My plan is to fly the kite when I get it on my regular set-up-for-LEI-kites bar. If I am happy...great. But if I feel the kite could benefit from some tweaking I'd like to do it.
Second, I've built several of my own bars and so am thinking I should build a dedicated bar for my Pansh. But what type? A pulley bar? A normal bar with the ability to have almost 1 meter of depower? There was a lot of talk in this post about bars, but I'm not sure what the optimal bar would be for this kite. I do think I'll skip the 5th line, but we'll see. Right now, foil kites are scary since I've never flown one....5th line seems to give some extra security. I did order a set of 15m lines from Pansh to, so I'll be all ready to build up a 15m bar if needed.
Finally, my goal is to KITE IN OUR LIGHT WINDS, using my Slingshot H4 hydrofoil wing. I am new to hydrofoil, and all summer the winds have been to light for my regular kites. None of them are any good in light winds, just to heavy. The A15 12m won't get me out in the lowest of winds, but I figured it would be a good place to start since I am new to foil kites. Also, our winds here are very gusty (2X is usual) and cursed with lulls. The local lake is ringed by trees, and is not very large. Which could be good since no waves (not enough length for waves to develop). Not sure if this info helps guide the direction of my bar setup and potential kite mods, but figure I'd share just in case it does.
Thanks again to all for the great info in this thread. It helped me decide to try a foil and a Pansh. Those expensive foils are sure nice...but wow massive sticker shock. Even for a used one !
The bigger size the foil the more bar throw/trim it needs. The A15 needs more than any other foil I have used. My 18m is something on the order of about 100cm. I would guess though a 12m would be more like 80cm. With a cord difference of 2.22m(18m) vs 1.78m(12m), 20% less I think that is right. Keep that in mind for your bar setup.
A bar about 55cm would be perfect. 50-60cm would work. I think I am using 65cm on my 18m. If you are making a bar consider flysurfer(i think it's theirs) trim system for race. It's just a long splice you adjust, quite simple.
Also foils are best controlled with backstall on the bar. You will have to learn how to use that being new to them.
I would first learn how to use the kite, without making any changes, unless there is a particular problem.
The first thing you want to change is adjust Z. You most likely will find shortening it a bit will make the kite more to your liking. Be aware Z will shorten itself over time as well. So you will have to adjust it to keep it to you liking every so often. It will stabilize after a few months though.
If you were to attempt my modifications, you may find them a little difficult. It is a bit past changing pulley lines etc, which for the first time on a foil is little involved. I suggest having a big space to lay it all out open and do one side at a time. You could do the mod first but best you get a feel for the kite as standard then with changing Z.
Also the mod I have suggested works for my 18m. The 12m most likely will need some little differences. The pulley changes should be fine, but the tip may need different adjustment and so will Z.
Yes fifth line flags foils a little better. You will lose performance with fifth line on from the drag it gives. It also makes the kite less likely to overfly because of the drag.
Foils are not the best in gusty winds. You can make them more stable with Z looser. The A15 is quite stable you may find it good from stock.
12m may be fine for lightwinds on hydrofoil. If you are light weight it may have been wise to get the ultralight version. But for a first foil I think it will be fine in either version.
You may want to try longer lines. They can be particularly useful in in inland situations to get to smoother and stronger winds, but can be a problem around things like trees and finding space to land and launch.
Pansh and secondhand is a great way to try foil kites. Flysurfer make excellent kites, but their prices are just ridiculous compared to Pansh. Hopefully more brands start adopting a more competitive business model. Mailing straight out of the factory in China seems a very cheap way to do things. If the brands were honest that is what a lot of them are doing anyway. It's just they pass the products through 1 or 2 other people who add a lot of cost.
You may want to consider strutless kites particular Board Riding Maui given your gusty conditions.
Comments from a foil kite and hydrofoil novice!
I have the Pansh Aurora II in 15m and 10m - most experience on 15m - maybe 5-6 times with only 3 on water with TT.
Don't be surprised by the amount of "backstall" required in the foil kite.
I got the Pansh bar with 25m lines and in the 60 cm size, got rid of 5th line - use sfl releases - and changed bar throw from about 18" to 22".
I immediately changed to 20m lines and replaced the CL.
Wanted to use my other bars with different line lengths with the kites so I checked the line lengths on the Pansh with new lines.
The Pansh bar had much longer front lines due to a pigtail just below the swivel/connector - pigtail is about 16 inches long - so I removed the pigtail thinking that would decrease the back stalling - bad idea!!
It did, but have since discovered that the kite is VERY slow and even grabbing the bar leader to loop the kite does not work well.
I added back 1/2 the length by adding leaders at the kite front line leaders. Flown the kite only once but it does fly noticeably better.
Will use it once more before adding the remaining length at the kite.
This should set up the kite so all my bars will work - I hope.
It appears that Pansh is probably correct in having the leader below the swivel/connector - longer front lines - to make the kite respond/fly correctly!
I assume this is required by the bridle configuration. Hope this helps a little.
Thank you Foilholio and Oldkiter, appreciate the help.
I've got a zillion more questions but don't wanna hi-jack this thread......maybe I'll start a new thread once I get my kite and fly it a bit. Something like "learning how to fly a foil kite with a Pansh A15 12m".
Although it is suggested Pansh does this, which is a good thing if it improves the kites, there is the possibility you haven't measured a 9m before and the setup for that is different. If Pansh is updating kites some mention of it would be good.
With regards to the changes. Shorter Z is well known be good on the A15. B longer at the tip may improve stability there given the position of B being more like A there. I do not use B at all there just C.
Read the posts last weekend and it motivated me to take out my unmodified 18m A15 for a ride on my old 5’4” Naish Skater. The kite is on an old cab 55cm 2:1 pulley bar and 30m lines + a 5th line. I had taken my 200lbs out on the skater a few times earlier this summer under my old 19m Speed3 and really enjoyed the power and upwind angle matched with the lively skater, that has limited volume, descent rocker and small tri-fin area, so I need extra juice to have fun strapless. Kite is so slow to turn, jibes are a challenge.
Last year I tried the 18m A15 on a Slingshot Dialer that is large volume, low rocker, quad fin for light wind. The grunt of the 18m A15 in 15mph+ yanked me off the strapless board a few times so I had kind of decided the kite was for twin tips only. But I discovered this week that with skater and the 18m A15 out in 10-15mph was great fun! I did notice the upwind was better on the 19m Speed because the kite flies further in the window, and I fly it lower towards the water. The A18 A15 just feels like it hangs above me and I can really have fun with the footwork. Even with the 2:1 bar high pull, I could hang on with one hand up and just slash back and forth. It carries enough forward speed to keep me on a plane with the littler board. With the higher AR Speed 3 I would not fly it so much overhead with fear of over-flying/flying-under. The Speed 3 works better with tension from a lower angle but once I realized how the A15 keeps tension, pulling upwards more because of how it flies back in the window, and then I adjusted my technique, it was lots of fun.
Reading the posts earlier I thought about removing C lines on the A15 and trying to improve the performance. But after having fun on the A15 18m & bar setup I tuned a couple of years ago, I think I’ll leave it unmodified. I’d still be lurking the thread for ideas tho and to see if a summary of simple steps ever comes out on how to take a stock A15 to an improved C-less version.