Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

forum for kitesurfers


sergei Scotland
Rare Poster
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:51 pm
Kiting since: 2016
Gear: Cabrinha 2014 9m
Brand Affiliation: None

Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby sergei Scotland » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:07 pm

Hi
Still struggling a bit with waterstarts and first few seconds of riding.

Questions:
Say we are talking moderate wind middle of the kite's wind range:
1)If direction where wind blows to (!) is 0 degrees (straight downwind), when I am being pulled by the kite over the board - say half way up - where does my board point to: 0 degrees - straight down wind, 15/30/45/60 degrees?
Obviously when I start diving the lite into power zone board is across wind - at almost 90 degrees...
(30 degrees is angle between 12 and 1 pm on a clock, 60 - between 12 and 2 o'clock obviously :-) )

2)As I stood up and doing my first 5 m riding - what is again angle of the board to the wind: 0/15/30/45/60 ?
Everybody says - start riding downwind but when watching those videos it does not look 0 degrees at all?
So what it should really be 0/15/30/45/60?

3)As I stood up and am doing my first 5 m - and generally after this as well - what is angle of the projection of the kite lines on the water and wind direction? I.e. were is kite?
Obviously kite is in power zone doing figure of 8 - where exactly relative to the wind direction:
What is the optimal angle (in conditions i described)?
0 - straight downwind, 15 degrees to the right/left, 30 degrees etc?

People say 2 o-clock - but this is confusing as most draw 2 o'clock around vertical plane, I am asking about horizontal plane - i.e. projection of lines on the water?
Obviously with stronger wind I can go more to the right left and pull might be enough :-)

4)As I keep riding i start going across wind more (say after first 10-15 m). Where do I stop as a beginner - I know I can eventually ride up wind but obviously not now... So where do I go relative to the wind direction actually:
15/30/45/60 degrees/75 degrees (roughly).
-------------------- End of 4 questions ---------------------

My impression is that I am making a basic mistake of not getting those 2 angles right and obviously it makes waterstart/riding almost impossible.... :-) LOL.

My idea is to use a far away mountain or a house to give me a pointer on where my board needs to point to - before I attempt my waterstart and where my kite needs to point to while I am doing figure of 8.

My problem is that it seems to be difficult for me as beginner to keep track of the directions and angles as I am waterstarting/riding - so I need reference points I can use visually as pointers :-)
Much easier on snowboard as visually you can always see the slope in front of you :-) Water is flat and featureless though :-)

pmoreira
Rare Poster
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:46 pm
Kiting since: 2017
Local Beach: Nova Vaga & Lagoa de Albufeira, Portugal
Gear: Switch Element5
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby pmoreira » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:33 pm

I'm at that stage myself, in fact I just came back from a lesson where I got to ride my first 10 meters or so :D, so I'm following this topic.

To add my 2 cents, my (very limited) experience is that fixed points of reference are just distracting, one more thing to be looking at, but maybe it works for you.
I find it easier to relate the board direction with the kite's position. For example, when I got up, I had the board pointing maybe 15 degrees from the kite or so. Kite was somewhere between 10 and 11 (vertical), and I was riding a bit more to the left than where the kite was.

Using your reference system, kite was at about 45 degrees to the left of the wind, I think, and board maybe 60 degrees left of the wind.

My feeling (having a couple of years of sailing experience) is that board angle in relation to kite position is more important than board angle in relation to wind position, because once you start moving, apparent wind will change the perceived wind direction on the kite, but I could be completely wrong here.

User avatar
jeromeL
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:22 pm
Kiting since: 2014
Local Beach: Longisland NY
Style: freestyle
Gear: Fone Bandit 2014 12m^2, 2015 9, 2015 7, 2015 14
Best GP 2015 9m
Star Sirius V2 12m
Nobile Fity/50 138cm
Naish Apex bindings.
Zeeko Green and White + Shinn El Stubbo
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Longisland, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby jeromeL » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:06 pm

Just think about moving kite as generating power.
think about edging board further away from line angle as breaking or controlling tension in line.

You want to get up with a bit of speed, so you aim the board a bit toward kite. Note that kite can be at different "wind angle" like you call it. I think o clock position is better but you are right it's 3d space ;)
anyway if you aim board straight at kite you loose line tension and kite doesn't pull as much, so you want a bit of angle between board and line so you feel a bit tension in line. If you edge too much you stop...
Once you get up and can ride 50 feet aiming somewhat at kite you need to learn to lay down in harness and control the direction of board edging properly then everyting becomes easy ;)

I will answer those questions but I think they are confusing for you.

1) board is somewhat 90 degree prior to diving kite, maybe on first try you turn board to 5 degree downwind half way up but on second try it's more like 70 degree. very quickly you barely turn board donwwind...

2) when people say downwind they don't mean 0 degree, more like 85 or 90. Even with board aimed at 90 degree from wind you still go downwind because your board doesn't track perfectly straight...
Anyway don't think about it that way, try to aim the board a bit away from kite. and try to aim as much as you can away without slowing down too much.

3) once you are up the kite is between 1 and 2 o clock not moving. I wouldn't worry about it's position depth in window.
If you ride toward kite the kite falls deeper, if you edge harder it flies to the edge. If you sheet in it goes deeper and sheet out it goes to the edge. If you sign kite slightly or each time you give kite input it will fall back a bit deeper.
But like i said don worry about it. If you have enough power don't move kite and try edging harder. If you loose power start signing the kite, sheeting in slowly when it goes down and out when it goes up. Try to adjust how hard you edge to optimize and stay on plane....

4) not sure what you mean.

ThickAir
Medium Poster
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:43 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby ThickAir » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:27 pm

It's very much a matter of feel, I agree with pmoreira in that worrying about fixed points of reference are going to be a distraction, however I can tell you have a highly analytical mind and it would help to solidify your visualizations before you even get in the water with some advice from experienced riders. I'd estimate that the board only goes to about 50-60 degrees when you first dive the kite. If I'm powered, I turn upwind almost immediately as I stand up. First dive of kite is pretty steep, close to 0, but you are not going to want to try that as a beginner. Perhaps try something closer to 30 degrees for your first kite dive.

faklord
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:03 pm
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby faklord » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:40 pm


User avatar
windsuks
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 891
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:13 pm
Kiting since: 0
Gear: Epic/Crazyfly/Ozone/Airush/Blankforce/Shinn/Dynabar
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: www.blastkiteboarding.co.uk
Contact:

Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby windsuks » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:49 pm

faklord wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:40 pm
I don't if this helps at all?
http://www.blastkiteboarding.co.uk/foru ... ?f=7&t=452
Cheers fella....
phpBB [video]

sergei Scotland
Rare Poster
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:51 pm
Kiting since: 2016
Gear: Cabrinha 2014 9m
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby sergei Scotland » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:50 pm

pmoreira - I agree in part with you actually.
I probably only need one land reference - where my kite should be.
This is the most difficult bit as I don't really know which direction wind is blowing to/from as soon as i start a water start :-( :-)
So if I know -that I "need to keep my kite over this mountain 20 miles away" - this feels like pretty useful piece of info as it will be immediately obvious to me if I take kite too much to the edge of the window and am in danger of losing all power. or take kite too much downwind and going too much downwind - with kite lines losing tension and kite losing power as it drifts straight downwind....

The second piece of info is how far left from kite direction I need to point my board:
A) at the time of waterstart/half way up on the board and
B) 3-5 seconds later for example.
C)eventually - say after 15-20 secs
Say there is a big difference if i point board 60 degrees left from kite or 15 degrees - there must be an approximate optimum for average conditions (obviously depends on conditions )...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

windsucks - thanks cool looking video. It does help a bit -
it looks like wind direction in the video is almost straight onshore? Having shore visible in first 30 seconds give this video a point of reference:-)
So from the video it looks like kite is 45 degrees from wind direction...
Board is all over the place but when he actually manages a waterstart it looks like he is about 15-20 degrees from kite(!) direction which makes it 65-70 degrees from wind direction?
I guess i'd be really happy with a video taken from a drone flying right above (!!!!) a kite and kitesurfer waterstarting and going for a bit with exact wind direction shown as an arrow or a stationery waving flag in the picture :-)
That would be perfect!!!!!!
Actually - may be such a video exists somewhere? :-)
-------------
Thanks Jeromet you are closest to answering what i want to know ( I am an engineer so think in measurable values, sorry :-) )
1) board is somewhat 90 degree prior to diving kite, maybe on first try you turn board to 5 degree downwind half way up but on second try it's more like 70 degree. very quickly you barely turn board downwind...
Not sure what you mean as first try and second try:
>>first try you turn the board 5 degree downwind
Do you mean it points across the wind at 85 degrees to the wind on first try (which first try? my first ever attempt to waterstart?)
Do you mean 85 degrees to the downwind is wrong as all beginners keep board too much across the wind?
Or do you mean the opposite - that i should point the board almost downwind (5 degrees from downwind direction)?

>>but on second try it's more like 70 degree. very quickly you barely turn board downwind...
Do you mean that on my second day (second try?) will be pointing the board 70 degree to the wind direction (almost across the wind). That is turns it about 20 degrees from across position?
So 70 degrees is what I should really be using?
This sounds a bit too much across???
And why a big variation 70 - 5 = 65 degrees - this is almost like saying there is no optimal direction???
So what is good for a beginner - 5 degrees from downwind direction to start with?
From all videos of good riders water starting they do point the board downwind quit a bit and only gradually change direction later?
<<
2) when people say downwind they don't mean 0 degree, more like 85 or 90. Even with board aimed at 90 degree from wind you still go downwind because your board doesn't track perfectly straight...
Anyway don't think about it that way, try to aim the board a bit away from kite. and try to aim as much as you can away without slowing down too much>>
What's "a bit" away from the kite - 15 degrees (half an hour on horizontal clock) 30 degrees (one hour)?
A bit is very vague - I need to visualize it so I can draw it - otherwise how am i going to fo it right if i do not know what right is? :-) :-)

I need to know what i need to do a reference before I try to do it.
Then I can try and keep the kite in the best location. Otherwise I might end up with kite on the edge of the window not pulling?

<<3) once you are up the kite is between 1 and 2 o clock not moving. I wouldn't worry about it's position depth in window.
>>
if this is 1 and 2 o'clock on a horizontal clock face - that means 45 degrees to the wind direction - sounds about right to me - is this what I should be aiming then? Kite at 45 degrees - half way between downwind and across the wind?
And the board : say 15 degrees from kites direction - which makes it 60 degrees from wind direction (10 o clock hr on the horizontal clock face)

4)As I keep riding i start going across wind more (say after first 10-15 m). Where do I stop as a beginner - I know I can eventually ride up wind but obviously not now... So where do I go relative to the wind direction actually:
15/30/45/60 degrees/75 degrees (roughly).
<<4) not sure what you mean.>>
I mean everybody recommends gradually go away from the wind as you gain speed (say after first 5-10 sec). Obviously in conditions i described there is a limit to how far across or may be even upwind I can go as I will stop eventually... :-).
For example:
- if my kite pulls at 45 degrees to the wind as suggested above - then if I go 90 degrees from kite pull direction (it will be 135 degrees from wind direction or 45 degrees upwind).
Then the force of the kite will be 90 degrees to my board and i will definitely stop?

May be I should ask:
if kite pulls in a direction - what is average max angle between kite lines' projection on water and board direction?

This is the "bit" away from kite described above? What is maximum value of this "bit" I can have as a beginner who cant really edge hard yet?
30 degrees/45 degrees/60 degrees? What a good kiteboarder can do in average conditions - 70 may be?

For example when this angle is 45 degrees and kite is between 1 and 2 (45 degrees in horizontal plane) it means my board is right across wind (45+45=90)?

Obviously I will still be going a bit downwind as boards slides sideways on the water a bit....

Again a video from a drone of a rider going in average conditions would help a lot (with wind arrow is shown.)

longwhitecloud
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2165
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:15 am
Kiting since: 0
Style: None, not even lawnmower.
Gear: Wipika Freeair 8.5 2 liner and Picklefork.
Brand Affiliation: iansmusic.com - free music for your kite videos

Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby longwhitecloud » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:05 am

i did a sit down water start one - check it out - about 20 tutorial videos down. hope it helps....

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsmbMQ ... Z3A/videos

Bushflyr
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Kiting since: 1999
Gear: OR Razor 7m
Caution Spitfire 9m, 10m
Firewire Vanguard 5' 4"
Naish Global 5' 10"
Shinn Monk
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby Bushflyr » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:08 am

Don't even worry about the wind direction, it completely doesn't matter. Even after many years kiting I'm never really sure where the wind is coming from unless I stop to figure it out. All that matters is where your kite is and how it's flying.

To water start just sheet in, dive your kite hard to 4-5 oclock and sheet out for a second. When the kite is established heading down sheet in to generate power and pull you up. Think about standing up on your board, not edging hard and dragging. Bend your knees and stand up on the board with a small kite assist, don't MAKE the kite drag you up and over. Stand up and point the board at the kite or just upwind of it as you level it out and build speed. When you've got the kite sorted and are up on a plane then start leaning into the harness, edging upwind, and putting more weight on the kite.

dylan*
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:33 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Gear:
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Florida

Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby dylan* » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:20 am

you dont need to worry about the exact angle you water start at.

just dive the kite hard and let the power of the kite pull you up, and point the board mostly in the direction that the kite's pulling you. at the end of your kite dive, redirect it back up. at this point you should be standing straight up and gliding downwind a bit. if you arent moving, you probably didn't dive the kite hard enough, or you didn't redirect it back up hard enough (equally important in most cases). once youre up and moving, you can start to edge more and more away from the kite and put a little more weight on your front foot, you should pick up more speed by doing this. so to put it simply: let the kite pull you downwind and follow it with your board, then once you're up and moving start to edge against it.

a few random tips:
- make sure that initial dive of the kite is hard enough to get you up and moving, dont try to stand up on your own, the kite should pull you up just with its power.
- if you're having trouble getting enough forward speed, try to dive the kite as hard as you can so that you get ripped out of the water and faceplant. this is too much power, dial it a little bit back from that -- better a little too much power than too little
- if youre sliding sideways on the water, that's good because it means you have enough power/speed. you can lean back a little into your edge. you dont want the board to ride flat on the water

if it sounds complicated, you are probably overthinking it. you just need to practice. go with the flow of the kite and then once you're up you can lean back and edge away, perpendicular to the wind


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: airfly, dwarf, PissDrunk and 31 guests

cron