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Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

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badgb21
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Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby badgb21 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:50 am

Sergei,
All the info you'll ever need is here and in the videos, the problem is knowing which bit of info you need and remembering it on the water!
My tips:
1. It's like learning to ride a bike, once you can do it, it's hard to imagine how you couldn't. - You will get it, but it can take some time, don't worry, take your time and stick with it.
2. If you have a helmet covering your ears you will have a hard time knowing where the wind is coming from. If so, try a higher cut one.
3. Dive the kite to the side you want to go, about 45 degs from dead downwind. Point your board at the kite and as you rise from the water, get the up stroke going and slowly start to turn the nose of the board and begin edging in the direction of travel. Edge slowly and eventually you will travel perpendicular to the wind and in time begin to go upwind.
4. see this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XGb2LmLEnI

Good luck and stick with it.

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Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby sergei Scotland » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:31 pm

badgb21 wrote:
All the info you'll ever need is here and in the videos
Do not quit totally agree - videos are misleading - depending on camera settings (zzom) the same dive might look like 30 degrees or 70 degrees - there is simply no references when camera is on the water. When you watch it on a small screen the actual angle kite moves relative to your eyes is about 5 degrees - so you can't really tell by watching videos... The only one which will give you correct angle will be one taken from straight above obviously....
the problem is knowing which bit of info you need and remembering it on the water!
Agree 100% - this is exactly why I need a landmark to keep my kite above! Obviously if it is far enough it is always on the same direction so I will alwasy try to keep kite in the best position!
This works very well in windsurfing and sailing for me - apparent wind on my face changes a lot as i speed up but my landmark stays he same.Without a landmark i tend to go upwind too much and obviously lose speed...
Dive the kite to the side you want to go, about 45 degs from dead downwind. Point your board at the kite and as you rise from the water, get the up stroke going and slowly start to turn the nose of the board and begin edging in the direction of travel. Edge slowly and eventually you will travel perpendicular to the wind and in time begin to go upwind.
Thanks badgb21 - you are the star - this is what I was really asking!
so it is 45 degrees on horizontal plane... Good to know.

A)What if I am slightly underpowered for conditions - would I need to dive and pump closer to the wind - going downwinf more (say 30-35 degrees from the wind direction)?
B)What if I am slightly overpowered - may not need to pump at all - would I keep the kite and pump at 55-60 degrees to allow me to go upwind more eventually?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All is good advice here but most people do not even try to answer the original question - it is all go with the feel etc...
Remember - I am a beginner I have no "feel". I am doing this very first time. And I want some pointers.
If I do not know where I am supposed to keep my kite I will not get far. Why does it have to be "try 50 times and eventually you will get it right?"
Why do I need to find correct location of the kite in the sky myself by try and error - instead of being told where it SHOULD BE?
I will start a new thread for this specific question as most people suggest it is kite pull position and direction which controls direction of the board and where I should be pointing it (the little "bit" upwind from kite direction)...

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Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby Varjis » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:25 pm

dylan* wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:20 am
you dont need to worry about the exact angle you water start at.

just dive the kite hard and let the power of the kite pull you up, and point the board mostly in the direction that the kite's pulling you. at the end of your kite dive, redirect it back up. at this point you should be standing straight up and gliding downwind a bit. if you arent moving, you probably didn't dive the kite hard enough, or you didn't redirect it back up hard enough (equally important in most cases). once youre up and moving, you can start to edge more and more away from the kite and put a little more weight on your front foot, you should pick up more speed by doing this. so to put it simply: let the kite pull you downwind and follow it with your board, then once you're up and moving start to edge against it.
There will be plenty of advices, everyone more or less related your to your problem. Everything matters and same time nothing matters. Your original answer was so precise that with this sport it doesn't work. You really cannot define what angle you have to keep your kite and/or board. There's no exact measurements for you, it changes all the time. How strong is the wind, how fast you go, what angle you are in, etc. I started this winter on ice, which was easy for me. I struggled to get into water as I had never done any water sports, it took me 5-6 different trips to beach until I got it and when I got it I was almost over powered. I'm still strugling to go upwind in light winds, but I think I got it eventually.
I was in the same place where you are from the first try. I managed to get onboard easily, but after that my power died and I sunk back into water. I watched videos, I though it trough and I did everything, but it seemed that it just didnt work, until I went to water at the upper limits of my kite. Power over skill I guess.

My advice to you at this point, as I think I'm just a bit ahead of you on this skill curve. Remember to point board downwind at first to gain speed, not straight to downwind, but a bit parallel. Do not let lines to go slack, keep tension, but not that much that you are dragging. You will get this when you get enough tries.
Do not pull your bar, instead learn to lean back to get more tension to lines and get your kite more responsible. When you first dive your kite and get your first speed, it's crucial that you keep your line tension up, if you get too much speed you have to lean back or kite wont respond at all.
Get a spot where you can easily go downwind. Everyone's talking 'bout walk-of-shame, etc, but it's part of the learning curve I heard. I still spend most of my times walking back up the beach and I really don't care. I would walk it as long as I have strenght ( I have done this btw ;) ) just to get more time on water, just for the fun of it.

So, like someone said earlier, don't overthink it. Just do it, if you don't get it, repeat, and don't give up. It's soooOOO much fun even here when the beaches / winds are not that great.

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Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby jeromeL » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:19 pm

sergei Scotland wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:50 pm

Not sure what you mean as first try and second try:
>>first try you turn the board 5 degree downwind
Do you mean it points across the wind at 85 degrees to the wind on first try (which first try? my first ever attempt to waterstart?)
Do you mean 85 degrees to the downwind is wrong as all beginners keep board too much across the wind?
Or do you mean the opposite - that i should point the board almost downwind (5 degrees from downwind direction)?

>>but on second try it's more like 70 degree. very quickly you barely turn board downwind...
Do you mean that on my second day (second try?) will be pointing the board 70 degree to the wind direction (almost across the wind). That is turns it about 20 degrees from across position?
So 70 degrees is what I should really be using?
This sounds a bit too much across???
And why a big variation 70 - 5 = 65 degrees - this is almost like saying there is no optimal direction???
So what is good for a beginner - 5 degrees from downwind direction to start with?
From all videos of good riders water starting they do point the board downwind quit a bit and only gradually change direction later?
<<
It's nice to see you are stoked and you are probably trying to visualize what you need to do until next session. You will probably laugh looking back to all those questions after a few more sessions ;)
You should watch the kite progression video they are pretty good.

I literally meant very first attempt and second attempt ;) I rode like 400 feet and finished it with a front roll jump not on purpose on my second attempt trying to get up ;)

I am also an engineer so we can talk about technical but honestly after you practice some more you will get it.
I tried wakeboarding a few times before kitesurfing so my first attempt ever as I got up I pointed the board pretty much 0 degree on your horizontal clock face ;)
Instructor told me to point board downwind, usually people keep board at 90 degree which is bad beginner habit, people get up but they kind of slide donwwind keeping board against pull. Best advise from instructor is to try to aim board at kite, so if you want to go left you send kite left and point board toward kite...
Instructor then told me to point it more like 45 70 degree right after I get up. the thing is that when send kite to one direction it's going to start pulling when it's 40 degree on your horizontal clock face so if board is like 70 degree then it's 30 degree difference from kite pull and board edge which seems fine. As you get up the board point toward kite so maybe 45 but right after you start edging away to 70 and as you gather more speed you can go upwind but that happens in less than 1 second. maybe 3 seconds when wind is light. I guess board is probably turned straight toward kite when you are halfway up and within a fraction of second you start edging...
Your 15 seconds estimate is way too much, the truth is that you can't really go downwind that much to pick up speed, when kite is small and wind is light you need to maintain some tension in line. Try to fly the kite while running downwind, it won't fly... So you need to start edging the board pretty quickly after getting up without killing too much speed. Want enough speed so board goes on a plane and doesn't drag too much water. You want enough edge to maintain line tension and increase relative wind on kite. You want to distribute your weight distribution on feet properly so the board doesn't sink too much on back foot to optimize plane but still edge somewhat. You want to lay down in harness so your weight is on kite instead of on top of board.
You can keep kite a bit higher so 11 or 1 pm in vertical clock face so the line hold your weight up, and less weight on board.
Anyway you can think about all of those variable but you will get a feeling for it with muscle memory.

As far as your horizontal clock I wouldn't think about it, it's pretty much impossible to fly the kite specifically to a horizontal clock position... The kite wan'ts to fly to the side of the window if you don't steer kite. As long as you steer kite up and down it will fall deeper in the window.
Much better to think about vertical clock position. later on when you work on jumping and wakestyle trick how deep kite is in window is more important but you don't really need to talk about horizontal clock face, talking about how deep kite is window is enough

One thing you might not realize is that kite wants to fly to edge of window
If you stand still and point kite to one direciton it will keep flying that way until it reach edge of window. Now if you walk with kite to one direction the kite falls back deep in window and wants to reach side of window so it kind of drift trying to reach edge, as you walk to the side more upwind it goes further to the side if you walk more toward it the kite falls deeper.
so you can keep kite in one position like 11 o clock and because you are not standing still on beach but riding to the left the kite is actually a bit deep in window and isn't totally to the side and keep pulling without need to sign it in sky.
Another thing is that your speed, is actually turning relative wind direction hitting the kite so even if you keep kite is same original horizontal o clock position in the new wind window it's actually a lot deeper (closer to 0 degree). so as you pick up speed the wind direction shift. The more the speed the more the wind direction will shift. So technically if you want big upwind angle you have to ride slow.
Anyway don't worry about how far the kite is in the horizontal o clock position. If you need power sign the kite up and down or sheet bar in. if you want dump power from line turn board toward kite. if you want the kite to fly further to edge of window edge harder and push bar out. But you don't actually steer the kite deeper in window...

Furthermore there is too many variables to tell you what works, you try to dive kite slow, and edge less, if it doesn't work you dive kite harder and perhaps point board further toward kite to get on a plane before edging. You keep trying to find what works for give wind condition, water condition, kite type and kite size...

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Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby jeromeL » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:21 pm

Varjis is right, it's hard to give you and exact angle because it's too dependent on conditions. When wind is strong you you literally pull on bar which bring you up on board then ride away straight upwind...

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Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby sergei Scotland » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:07 pm

Thanks jeromeL.
I think badg21 answered my main question in his point 3) on this second page:
3. Dive the kite to the side you want to go, about 45 degs from dead downwind. Point your board at the kite and as you rise from the water, get the up stroke going and slowly start to turn the nose of the board and begin edging in the direction of travel. Edge slowly and eventually you will travel perpendicular to the wind and in time begin to go upwind.
He said that 45 degrees is where you want the kite to be most of the time as you are pumping.
Feels right. Do you agree?
In conditions I describe my instructor told me I need 2 pumps before setting the kite at a fixed location.

You also suggested 45 degree for kite position and board direction (at the start of waterstart). So you effectively agree.
Good you mentioned that this only should last 1-2 seconds - before taking board ot about 70 degrees (20 degrees from across wind). This feels right too.
I remember having this feeling I am going too fast downwind and losing line tension :-)
Varjis is right, it's hard to give you and exact angle because it's too dependent on conditions. When wind is strong you you literally pull on bar which bring you up on board then ride away straight upwind...
2)That was my second quiz :-) question in my other thread which i started (to answer the kite location only question as this thread was too wide - not specific enough)...

Say I have a bigger kite/more wind - so I do not need to pump at all.
But still well within kite range - we are not talking 30 mph here.
Are we saying that waterstart kite position will change to be more like 60 degrees to the wind direction? And board probably more like 60 to 80-85 degrees? Does it happen this way?

3) I also have a third question: If wind is lighter and everybody have to constantly pump the kite - does the average kite position go towards say 30-35 degrees off wind direction?
Say 30 degrees right from wind direction if I go right? Or does it pretty much stays to be 45 degrees - and I just need to pump all the time?

I am asking the other 2 questions because wind is variable and i need to be able to waterstart in different conditions during the same session. So I need to adjust my visual picture and my landmark accordingly... :-)

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Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby jeromeL » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:52 pm

sergei Scotland wrote: Say I have a bigger kite/more wind - so I do not need to pump at all.
But still well within kite range - we are not talking 30 mph here.
Are we saying that waterstart kite position will change to be more like 60 degrees to the wind direction? And board probably more like 60 to 80-85 degrees? Does it happen this way?

3) I also have a third question: If wind is lighter and everybody have to constantly pump the kite - does the average kite position go towards say 30-35 degrees off wind direction?
Say 30 degrees right from wind direction if I go right? Or does it pretty much stays to be 45 degrees - and I just need to pump all the time?

I am asking the other 2 questions because wind is variable and i need to be able to waterstart in different conditions during the same session. So I need to adjust my visual picture and my landmark accordingly... :-)
Because wind is stronger you don't need to dive kite as hard to get enough power to get going. When it's light you put kite slightly to the other side of window before diving it so it goes really deep in the window for a long power stroke that way you get up and go almost in one stroke and perhaps getting back up is enough to get going.
I guess as a beginner your first try you use small kite so need a few "pump" or sign kite like we say here. But after a while you don't really need to sign kite much. I usually dive once then bring it back up at the 11 or 1 pm position and if I need extra power I dive it a second time.
anyway when wind is stronger you don't need kite to go deep in window. so a tiny dive is enough to get you up on board. also because the dive angle of the kite doesn't go as deep the pull will come when kite is much further to the side so maybe 60 instead of 45.
If you think about wind window as a quarter of a sphere. when you dive the kite it cuts through from one side to the other side in somewhat straight line. The deeper it goes in teh sphere the more power. When it's light you cut further into the sphere so horizontal clock position is deeper like 45 degree. if you dive kite less the maximum power when it cuts through the sphere will happen more like 60 degree.
So effectively you can start edging board harder earlier. how hard you edge is relative to where lines are pulling...

essentially you always edge away from line more or less same angle. The angle that keeps the line tension and board speed ideal... The other variable is how to fly kite to make enough power, down stroke deeper when wind is light and not as much when wind is strong, keep signing it (pump it) to let it fall back a bit deeper and generate more power...

When I sign kite I actually turn my board slightly to follow where kite is to optimize it and shift my weight on top of board or in harness depending where kite is. If you are good at it you can actually keep going upwind while signing kite quite aggressively. Anyway all of those are extreme light wind technique.

Main advice for beginer is to actually start with small kite but after a few try it's actually easier to be powered because you whatever you do with board you won't stall and keep going, only way to slow down is to learn to lean in harness and edge effectively learning to go upwind ;)
You will see soon you will wonder how to slow down ;) once you can slow down with board you will go upwind ;)

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Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby sergei Scotland » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:20 pm

I have to :-) copy these links to specific parts of video bsdg21 suggested they are too good - every beginner should watch these! Taken from a drone :-)
And this part (15 seconds) of the video badg21 suggested is beautifull:
Shows all the angles from a drone :-):
The whole video is very good but those two bits actually show the answers to my questions:
And this part (15 seconds) of the video badg21 suggested is beautifull:
Shows all the angles from a drone :-):

phpBB [video]


phpBB [video]


All videos (playlist) from Kite-Surf-College Tutorials and Tricks are also very good with a lot of drone footage too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pK4a1Z ... BAE_HL_Cgl

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Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby Mike101 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:05 pm

Hi Sergei- glad to see you are serious about learning this!

Start with the board face vertical, frogman in the water and dead across wind. If you are not facing the board crosswind it will spin you. Practise sitting in the frog position on your back allowing the kite to pull gently at 12(dead overhead). If you are spinning clockwise when viewed from above put 90% of your weight on your right leg(I still can't really figure why thsi actually works but it does). You may also have to do a left hand backstroke paddle to right yourself. Always start from dead across wind.

When you dive the kite point the nose and flatten off the board IN THE DIRECTION OF THE PULL- this will be roughly between 10-30deg from downwind. You then need to make the smooth carve upwind to maintain tension on the lines.

Predicting the pull of the kite on the first upstroke after your powerdive when the lines have gone slack is where beginners fail. The pull is dependent on how fast you got going and how slack the lines are along with your delay in sending the kite back for the upstroke. So quite a few parameters.

Your best bet is to always kite where others are around and look at their angles. Ideally talk to them and ask them to show you a 'beginner style water start' where the initial planing is elongated and the carve upwind more pronounced. Everyone starting from back in the water is doing exactly the same thing at this stage

Best of luck- I'm always happy to help and spend 10/15minutes talking people through where I think they are goning wrong. Ask people at your kite beach for some advice.

Btw best bit of advice I received before being able to board start and having spent 10-20 hours in the water was ''just do what I do- do it yourself- you know what to do-do it don't think it'' it strangely helped loads.

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Re: Waterstart - directions kite and board relative to the wind

Postby badgb21 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:06 pm

We can conclude badgb21 is beautiful!

I.... thank you!


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