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On Shore Wave Kites

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Slappysan
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Re: On Shore Wave Kites

Postby Slappysan » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:52 am

Eduardo wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:44 am
Direct on shore, you are not really wave riding in my view (as Plummet said - define wave riding!) In these conditions, you are playing in waves. Here, any all around kite is fine, including Naish Pivot.
I disagree with this.

If you are riding the face of the wave then you are riding waves, regardless if it's onshore or not. In good sized windswell you can let your kite drift completely and be 100% powered by the wave your are surfing.

The main issue with surfing onshore is the wind speed vs. the wave speed as once you are heading downwind with the wave the kite's relative wind drops substantially.

One way to get around this is high wind conditions, when the wind is 25+ knots and the wave speed only reduces that to 17+ knots you are fine.

In 20 knots of wind you'll be down to 12 knots at the kite, and at that point many kites will lose responsiveness and may even drop.

Personally most of the riding I do is riding onshore windswell and I value two things:
1) the ability for a kite to drift in as low a 8 knots relative wind
2) upwind ability of the kite because riding onshore means long tack chains to get upwind then zooming downwind riding the wave

The best drifting kites for onshore are lightweight single strut kites that luff when depowered allowing them to create downwind drag and move downwind with you.

Kites like:
LF Solo
Airush Ultra
North Mono

halloi
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Re: On Shore Wave Kites

Postby halloi » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:41 am

hey Matteo,

I started out on a Kahoona and moved on to the Cabo, all I can say is that it will blow your mind how fast a wave kite turns compared to the kahoona and how it just sits in the sky until you get line tension back. I am sure most surf specific kites will do just fine, they all seem to have whats needed (huge depower, drift and fast turning)

A fellow kiter once asked me after watching me ride back to the beach how it was possible that my kite didnt just drop out of the sky since I was going downwind with the kite right in front of me, I guess thats a perk of an incredible wave kite, they just refuse to drop...

anyway, you get the point ; )

I dont recommend the SST since its geometry makes it difficult to self land and launch (leading edge doesnt lie flat on the ground)
at least the earlier models, not sure about the 2017/18 - maybe someone can chime in.

take care

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Re: On Shore Wave Kites

Postby ciscokitesurfer » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:54 am

Hello,

SST kite is a good kite. I would not rule out this kite because it has some of the leading edge doesn't sit on the sand. Unless is super windy the kite stay in its place. Riding waves with a kite is not easy but rewarding when every thinks works in your favour.
Very good information in this post.

cheers

Jose

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Re: On Shore Wave Kites

Postby bigtone667 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:58 am

Slappysan wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:52 am
Eduardo wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:44 am
Direct on shore, you are not really wave riding in my view (as Plummet said - define wave riding!) In these conditions, you are playing in waves. Here, any all around kite is fine, including Naish Pivot.
I disagree with this.

If you are riding the face of the wave then you are riding waves, regardless if it's onshore or not. In good sized windswell you can let your kite drift completely and be 100% powered by the wave your are surfing.

The main issue with surfing onshore is the wind speed vs. the wave speed as once you are heading downwind with the wave the kite's relative wind drops substantially.

One way to get around this is high wind conditions, when the wind is 25+ knots and the wave speed only reduces that to 17+ knots you are fine.

In 20 knots of wind you'll be down to 12 knots at the kite, and at that point many kites will lose responsiveness and may even drop.

Personally most of the riding I do is riding onshore windswell and I value two things:
1) the ability for a kite to drift in as low a 8 knots relative wind
2) upwind ability of the kite because riding onshore means long tack chains to get upwind then zooming downwind riding the wave

The best drifting kites for onshore are lightweight single strut kites that luff when depowered allowing them to create downwind drag and move downwind with you.

Kites like:
LF Solo
Airush Ultra
North Mono
I agree completely with this assessment. We have a great on-shore wind/wave location and our major issue is keeping line tension in the kite as we travel down the face of the wave and towards the kite. Our choices are to either ride over-powered to have enough power on the wave to keep line tension and control, or to have a good looping, drifting kite.

I fly Clouds, so I can ride a little over-powered, drift and loop. Nothing unusual for me to downloop the kite four or five times on a 200 or 300m ride to maintain line tension and introduce power.

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Re: On Shore Wave Kites

Postby plummet » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:46 am

bigtone667 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:58 am
Slappysan wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:52 am
Eduardo wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:44 am
Direct on shore, you are not really wave riding in my view (as Plummet said - define wave riding!) In these conditions, you are playing in waves. Here, any all around kite is fine, including Naish Pivot.
I disagree with this.

If you are riding the face of the wave then you are riding waves, regardless if it's onshore or not. In good sized windswell you can let your kite drift completely and be 100% powered by the wave your are surfing.

The main issue with surfing onshore is the wind speed vs. the wave speed as once you are heading downwind with the wave the kite's relative wind drops substantially.

One way to get around this is high wind conditions, when the wind is 25+ knots and the wave speed only reduces that to 17+ knots you are fine.

In 20 knots of wind you'll be down to 12 knots at the kite, and at that point many kites will lose responsiveness and may even drop.

I agree completely with this assessment. We have a great on-shore wind/wave location and our major issue is keeping line tension in the kite as we travel down the face of the wave and towards the kite. Our choices are to either ride over-powered to have enough power on the wave to keep line tension and control, or to have a good looping, drifting kite.

I fly Clouds, so I can ride a little over-powered, drift and loop. Nothing unusual for me to downloop the kite four or five times on a 200 or 300m ride to maintain line tension and introduce power.
I kinda agree with you and i dont all at the same time. Yes if you are on a wave you are riding it. But the waves you get in onshore conditions are piecemeal crappy waves and due to the onshore wind you are limited to a few shitty turns before having to carve out and stop the kite from slack lining,

You then ride cross shore and cross off and instantly can sustain extended down the line riding many times better than onshore mush. Sure you can ride the mush. But thats what it is mush. When i am ridding mush i dont even consider it wave riding, Nor do i try to wave ride the crud. BUT i have glorious waves i a reasonably consistant basis so i can cherry pick the good conditions and fang around in the not so good. The guys that never get good conditions must do the best they can with there cruddy mushy surf.

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Re: On Shore Wave Kites

Postby Pellesurf » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:17 am

Eduardo wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:44 am
If you are in side shore waves or side off, the kite is parked and drifting downwind. Cabrinha Drifter is a great example of such a kite.

If the wind has some on shore to it, you are forced to move the kite. Quick pivot turning without big pull is a big help. Naish Pivot is a great example.

Direct on shore, you are not really wave riding in my view (as Plummet said - define wave riding!) In these conditions, you are playing in waves. Here, any all around kite is fine, including Naish Pivot.
A short clip when I play in on shore waves and winds, with a Naish Pivot. It's not that easy but always fun :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e1juDWLPq4

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Re: On Shore Wave Kites

Postby Onda » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:11 pm

bigtone667 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:58 am
Slappysan wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:52 am
Eduardo wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:44 am
Direct on shore, you are not really wave riding in my view (as Plummet said - define wave riding!) In these conditions, you are playing in waves. Here, any all around kite is fine, including Naish Pivot.
I disagree with this.

If you are riding the face of the wave then you are riding waves, regardless if it's onshore or not. In good sized windswell you can let your kite drift completely and be 100% powered by the wave your are surfing.

The main issue with surfing onshore is the wind speed vs. the wave speed as once you are heading downwind with the wave the kite's relative wind drops substantially.

One way to get around this is high wind conditions, when the wind is 25+ knots and the wave speed only reduces that to 17+ knots you are fine.

In 20 knots of wind you'll be down to 12 knots at the kite, and at that point many kites will lose responsiveness and may even drop.

Personally most of the riding I do is riding onshore windswell and I value two things:
1) the ability for a kite to drift in as low a 8 knots relative wind
2) upwind ability of the kite because riding onshore means long tack chains to get upwind then zooming downwind riding the wave

The best drifting kites for onshore are lightweight single strut kites that luff when depowered allowing them to create downwind drag and move downwind with you.

Kites like:
LF Solo
Airush Ultra
North Mono
I agree completely with this assessment. We have a great on-shore wind/wave location and our major issue is keeping line tension in the kite as we travel down the face of the wave and towards the kite. Our choices are to either ride over-powered to have enough power on the wave to keep line tension and control, or to have a good looping, drifting kite.

I fly Clouds, so I can ride a little over-powered, drift and loop. Nothing unusual for me to downloop the kite four or five times on a 200 or 300m ride to maintain line tension and introduce power.
Ditto! Completely agree!
Onshore for me is no fun at all when waves get over waist-high. It becomes almost impossible to cross the breaking waves then due to the very sharp riding angle relative to the waves.
When you surf the waves even a very well drifting wave-specific kite falls out of the sky very easily due to the "no-relative-wind-left-for-the-kite-effect". Only heavy looping helps - and you have to start looping early enough, before line tension gets lost (not that I´m really capable of doing this properly...).

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Re: On Shore Wave Kites

Postby marlboroughman » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:26 pm

Onshore can be a lot of fun if you have the right kite and you know how to fly it. The waves are short and even if you get the long one the wind will tumble it, so forget down the line. You have to grab a piece and go up and down with it. Here is how I do it with a kite that flies back and turns smoothly. I turn down the wave while turning the kite up thus getting extra kick from it, continue straight down and when the kite is over me I send it straight into the power zone in front of me, steer it back up and bottom turn, as the kite rises I hit the lip and go down the wave while the kite goes up keeping the tension on the lines, full scoop of ice cream again and bottom turn. With this technique and the right kite you can turn any onshore "shithole" into your little piece of Hawaii Heaven.

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Re: On Shore Wave Kites

Postby bigtone667 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:19 pm

plummet wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:46 am
bigtone667 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:58 am
Slappysan wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:52 am


I disagree with this.

If you are riding the face of the wave then you are riding waves, regardless if it's onshore or not. In good sized windswell you can let your kite drift completely and be 100% powered by the wave your are surfing.

The main issue with surfing onshore is the wind speed vs. the wave speed as once you are heading downwind with the wave the kite's relative wind drops substantially.

One way to get around this is high wind conditions, when the wind is 25+ knots and the wave speed only reduces that to 17+ knots you are fine.

In 20 knots of wind you'll be down to 12 knots at the kite, and at that point many kites will lose responsiveness and may even drop.

I agree completely with this assessment. We have a great on-shore wind/wave location and our major issue is keeping line tension in the kite as we travel down the face of the wave and towards the kite. Our choices are to either ride over-powered to have enough power on the wave to keep line tension and control, or to have a good looping, drifting kite.

I fly Clouds, so I can ride a little over-powered, drift and loop. Nothing unusual for me to downloop the kite four or five times on a 200 or 300m ride to maintain line tension and introduce power.
I kinda agree with you and i dont all at the same time. Yes if you are on a wave you are riding it. But the waves you get in onshore conditions are piecemeal crappy waves and due to the onshore wind you are limited to a few shitty turns before having to carve out and stop the kite from slack lining,

You then ride cross shore and cross off and instantly can sustain extended down the line riding many times better than onshore mush. Sure you can ride the mush. But thats what it is mush. When i am ridding mush i dont even consider it wave riding, Nor do i try to wave ride the crud. BUT i have glorious waves i a reasonably consistant basis so i can cherry pick the good conditions and fang around in the not so good. The guys that never get good conditions must do the best they can with there cruddy mushy surf.
We are a little bit lucky with onshore conditions because we have a 500m sandbank in front of the beach that is 45 degrees to direction of the wind and waves. We get some truly awesome long rides. And some long swims when we drop the kite.

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Re: On Shore Wave Kites

Postby CaptainCore » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:51 pm

To understand the differences in both kites and wave sails, you have to consider the speed of the wave you are likely to be riding. For example big pacific waves that travel thousands of miles before they tip up on places like Maui are travelling considerably faster, than waves in areas without a great deal of fetch and are wind driven, so not going faster than the wind you are about to use riding them.

If you know anything about the physics of sailing, the wind we use is a combination of the true wind, and the wind created by our movement, and is referred to as 'apparent' wind, so, wave foil shapes designed to deal with higher levels of created wind in the apparent wind tend to be shallower, so a side shore kite or sail generally would be such. These kites also tend to deal with stronger wind better and require a bit more effort to get going.

Onshore waves are slower so can be handled OK by more conventional kites, obviously as long as they are set up to have their control options with slack lines bridled for. There are very few folk who live only for big fast waves in exotic locations so specialty kites like in our brand the Section kite is aimed at this market. It is incidentally why speciality wave kites are also handy for foils, because the apparent wind goes forward with them pretty quickly as well.

Shortly we have a new kite coming to the market aimed more at onshore and entry level waves, but what works for them also makes it an excellent entry level kite was well, obviously if you've ever dumped in the critical section you'll know there aint always that much wind, particularly over reefs, or in the shore break, where the waves clean the wind near the surface clean off the water so relaunching can be problematic, same with windsurfing, getting water started on reefs can be a real pain. So there is a lot of benefit from kites designed to work in waves, slow or fast.

So in a short sum up onshore kite slightly fuller foil shape, sideshore kite slightly shallower foil shape, how do they feel? The latter pretty gutless unless tearing down a wave face the former a bit more normal, what else do they do? The old section used to jump like a mad thing but it came down pretty damn quick, the onshore type likely aint going to wind boosting awards but could prove to be a bonus in small size when you want something slow for when it's howling, but hey, different designers have different ideas and we all know how everything can change with a bit of re bridling.

Hope this helps.


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