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Triple & quad ripstop

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alford
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Triple & quad ripstop

Postby alford » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:27 am

Is there a down side to these new wonder fabrics?
Core for example doesn't use their triple Coretex ripstop on their light wind kites. Is it really that much heavier to forgo using it on light wind specific kites or is there more to the story than weight alone?
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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby Macster » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:25 am

So anecdotally, my friend's 2018 North Vegas still ripped its canopy in a crash. So maybe not the miracle fabric It's made out to be. Though apparently Naish were so happy with how well their new material stood up on last year's Torch that they were able to remove the dacron reinforcing on the wing tips and reduce some overall weight.

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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby windmaker » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:27 am

As a sailmaker I can tell you 2 things.

1) All things being equal the denser the ripstop the heavier the material which also means that double, triple or quadruple ripstop means nothing. You can increase the size of the squares and add rip stop lines or use single ripstop with smaller squares the result is the same.

2) The quality of materials is ultimately the most important thing. As a parallel , would you rather have one sharp blade for shaving or 4 blunt ones?

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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby Greenturtle » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:09 pm

One could use a slightly thicker cloth overall, but still single ripstop, however then the customer cannot “see” the difference.
I have heard that more ripstop threads can lead to more porosity after its worn. Harder to get as tight and contiguous a weave with differences in diameter between the threads. Additional ripstop lines double, triple, or quadruple this. I cannot personally offer evidence of this though.

I feel that no current canopy material will prevent a tear when driftwood, sharp rocks or bushes get snagged etc. so I would opt for light weight in this regard.

Do the multi ripstops stretch less? Who knows. Maybe they stretch out even more.

You could look at a tomahawk situation like this-
A very light kite will hit the surface with less force.
Two objects going the same speed but with different weights, the heavier object will always hit harder, thus requires more reinforcement to survive, so what is gained with the heavier material? Might even lead to more tomahawks because its heavy and less responsive than it couldve been.

How much weight difference is there between single and double/triple/quadruple ripstop?
The Flite series kites went this year from single to double ripstop, and according to another member here the weight increased 300g in the 14.5m size. Some other changes were made as well, different dacron etc so not sure how much of this is just the canopy material difference. But if you add a couple hundred grams per ripstop line, its adding up pretty quick. 300g (.66 lb) is already a significant difference in my book.

I want a kite that flies well and performs well in the air, and am of the opinion that for any given design, the lighter the better.
If a kite crashes into a tree or gets rolled in heavy surf all bets are off I dont care what brand or cloth that kite is, its getting worked.

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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby Greenturtle » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:39 pm

A small difference in weight may seem insignificant, until you realize that you are feeling it, every time you turn the kite, every time it stalls in marginal conditions, every time it just wont quuuite relaunch, every time you shoulder your pack even, for the life of the kite.

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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby tegirinenashi » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:22 pm

I'll be blunt here: doubling (let alone tripling, quadrupling) reinforcement threads is dumb. And who said those threads should be together; why not to space them evenly as windmaker suggested?

Conventional wisdom is that large canopy tears are prevented with smaller panels. Understandably, cost-conscious manufacturers might be reluctant to follow this route; then why not to manufacture ripstop cloth with additional super thick threads 5 cm apart? (Or they could be spaced at even larger distance to dilute the extra weight.)

Here is marketing slogan for this future material: "super-ripstop".

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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby windmaker » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:45 pm

Another marketing gimmick I heard of lately is Naish advertising the "new" super strong thread used to stitch the leading edge or their kites. Thanks to this "innovation" you can now inflate your kite to 60 +psi. Whatever, thread strength has never been an issue on leading edges even with "traditional" threads, cloth failure yes. Talk about marketing, sounds more like desperation...

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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby alford » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:12 pm

I think it's telling that Core (I don't own any) doesn't use their triple rip on the LW series. Honestly l think most brands go to multi rip because they feel forced to because the competing brands are. It sounds good to the average kiter the way it is marketed too.

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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby Ludmil » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:46 pm

windmaker wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:45 pm
Another marketing gimmick I heard of lately is Naish advertising the "new" super strong thread used to stitch the leading edge or their kites. Thanks to this "innovation" you can now inflate your kite to 60 +psi. Whatever, thread strength has never been an issue on leading edges even with "traditional" threads, cloth failure yes. Talk about marketing, sounds more like desperation...
They say the kite can withstand even 60 psi which they've tested.
Actually, Naish recommended pressure differs from 10.5 psi to a 13 psi depending on the kite size (though, I pump my 14 above the recommended, up to 12 psi for example). Yes, the kite feels stiffer because of that.
So, what is your experience about that...?
PS.I don't know yet is it quadtex stronger or not, but the material feels very different than anything else.

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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby tautologies » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:18 pm

windmaker wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:45 pm
Another marketing gimmick I heard of lately is Naish advertising the "new" super strong thread used to stitch the leading edge or their kites. Thanks to this "innovation" you can now inflate your kite to 60 +psi. Whatever, thread strength has never been an issue on leading edges even with "traditional" threads, cloth failure yes. Talk about marketing, sounds more like desperation...
You make little sense right now. In one part you say that quality of the material makes the difference, and now that it's marketing. Isn't this a way to make material better? Or is it specifically the dacron?

Same thing goes for the new stronger and stiffer canopy. Naish said exactly how much weight it adds, but that they then could remote the dacron and the sum was a stronger more durable kite that was lighter. If your claim is that weight doesn't matter we'll never agree.

Now when it comes to how the threads are spaced out. Don't you think they have tested that? How does it makes sense that your intuition somehow is better than the people that actually design and produce this stuff?

Also, your blunt blade metaphor makes no sense. Especially since you also argue that the stronger thread makes no difference.

I tend top pump my kites hard, and I'm over the moon happy that naish increased their recommended PSI by this much.


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