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 Post subject: Insider info and the future of kiteboarding ???
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 7:40 pm 
Everybody read this, re-read carefully, think a lot (thanx Jurgen!) and let's discuss...
http://www.flysurfer.nl/flash/ramvstube.swf


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:32 pm 
Look at the fact! We are in 2003 and not 2006 and tube kites are the most uesd kites in the world.


Over and out

Lets wait and see in 2006 and we can have the discussion


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:10 am 
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here you will find my comments about it:

the things mentioned can be all right, but what I know from my experience, is stated below.
I fly tubes, tried foils several times.

Set Up:

I know from getting rams ready to fly that you better should fill the foil before launching with some air, this takes time as well.
I don't know if you need to, but I always see it.

You can leave the lines at the tube kites as well. But when you take it of, it will be faster and without tangling of several hundred small lines, which can happen at foils.

Launching:

the por guys who have to launch straight from the powerzone. For me this is the biggest safety threat when it comes to foils.
Yes, you can use it from the edge of the window as well, but I never see anyone doing it. And if you have a small beach and you have special wind conditions, someone can easily go with a tube kite into the water
and start it from the edge there. With a foil it is not necessarily working. Maybe with the new Tital it should be ok, since the water can run out of the foil at the tips easily.

Relaunch:

indeed, foils are good to be relaunched, if not full with water (once again,the Titan doesn't have that problem anymore)

In waves the foils can be easily washed and a relauch isn't possible.
To relaunch a tube after waves hit it, is way more possible.

The relaunch throught the powerzone can be dangerous as well, instead of relaunching it at the window.

Lift:

I only saw once a foil rider jumping almost as high as me.
So if they get improved, maybe they will be higher.

Hangtime:

maybe true, but I didn't see a foil jumping longer than me.
But this I will have to see again with the new foils.

Upwind performance:

I'm not sure about it. I will have a closer look at this during this year.

Future:

I agree, that we will see many tube companies doing foils as well.
If they do foils only or foils and tubes, I don't know. We will see!

:bye:
Toby


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:25 am 
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toby, i'm not aware of any foil that 'has' to be launched in the powerzone, which ones do you mean. most guys i know just 'prefer' the direct approach. it saves time and i've never seen anyone dragged further than they want to be.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:16 am 
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Toby I have owned New wave / EX / peter lynn 840 and 1120 arcs / Warrior 7m, 9.3m and 16.5m / Mach 1 F one / and my new 15.5m Airush Lift / and flown the pyscho for many hours but had only one go thus far on the new titan.

I agree with everything the flysurfer tester has said from my own experience except a few things :

I don't think the rams small or large have the upper wind range of LEi's, the lower is excellent - so overall he is probably correct in saying rams have as large wind range , but you get quickly overpowered in the higher winds due the more aerodynamic effieciency of the foil and teh fact that the response through the bridles and pulleys is not as 'instant' as teh the four line LEI. I can take my 15.5m airush out from 11 - 22 knots and still have some depower - only 75kg on a flaoty 158cm airush fusion mutant - but but but -that is becasue I have learnt how to edge properly from using foild for three years hence I can outlast most of the recreational guys in the high winds.

Flysurfer Listen to me: As soon as you develop a ram that turns as quickly as an LEi of a simialr wind range/power you will dominate teh market - the rams have sooooo many more advantages which I used to love - but empircally I have spent only two weeks on the LEI and can now do multipleloops with transitions on heel and toe - both rails - I can even go blind - but with mixed results - I tried and tried and tried on my foils, but couldn't get the consistency I now get.

Foils will superceed in my mine LEI's, but as of now for those into trick and manouvees - the LEI in my opinion rules. But time will tell - flysurfer get those bastard rams to turn, that is the key - even if another set of pulleys has to be used like the UDS system (way to many pulleys a a total)

cheers

eppo


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:21 am 
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I can't get that website to load, but it seems to be a discussion of rams compared to tubes, so I have a few counterpoints:

Quote:
"Toby" wrote:
I know from getting rams ready to fly that you better should fill the foil before launching with some air, this takes time as well.


Yes, it does take time. My ARCs are fully preinflated by the time I've unwound my lines & got "dressed" (harness, gloves, booties, etc.). The only tube I rode took about 5 seconds of line tension to preinflate before launching.

Quote:
You can leave the lines at the tube kites as well. But when you take it of, it will be faster and without tangling of several hundred small lines, which can happen at foils.


I never removed the lines from the foil, & the bridles never tangled. If I did want to remove the lines I'd attach the right & left pigtails to each other, just like on a 2-line tube (to prevent tangling). Of course it's a non-issue with an ARC.

Quote:
the por guys who have to launch straight from the powerzone. For me this is the biggest safety threat when it comes to foils.
Yes, you can use it from the edge of the window as well, but I never see anyone doing it.


You'll likely see it soon, with modern ARCs (2002 & newer) with zipper vents. With any foil it's easier (& safer) to fly it low to the water edge of the window, instead of the top edge.

Quote:
And if you have a small beach and you have special wind conditions, someone can easily go with a tube kite into the water
and start it from the edge there. With a foil it is not necessarily working. Maybe with the new Tital it should be ok, since the water can run out of the foil at the tips easily.


I think ARCs can be drift-launched with sufficient preinflation, which may require using a pump :wink: Bridled foils should be similar.

Quote:
indeed, foils are good to be relaunched, if not full with water (once again,the Titan doesn't have that problem anymore)


I think you'd be safe saying that about any modern foil. I've had my ARC on the water for about 20 minutes (pre-released safety, & subsequent tangle without stopperball) & still relaunched fine. I also swam it in once for about half an hour when the wind died completely (so I didn't bother rolling it up) & it only took on about 2 cups of water (& lost very little air - I've relaunched it with less, & when BOTH sides were wet with much more than 2 cups).

Quote:
In waves the foils can be easily washed and a relauch isn't possible.
To relaunch a tube after waves hit it, is way more possible.


That's strange. My experience is the exact opposite. It's so gusty & shifty where I launch, that I've crashed in the surf more times than I care to remember, & ARCs will usually float like an air mattress & relaunch, but tubes will usually get tumbled & not relaunch until after retrieving the kite (usually requiring winding in the lines), sanding, unwinding....

Quote:
The relaunch throught the powerzone can be dangerous as well, instead of relaunching it at the window.


I don't know about you, but when I'm doing a water-relaunch, there's usually :wink: at least a linelength of open water downwind.

Quote:
I only saw once a foil rider jumping almost as high as me.


When I switched to ARCs my jump height stayed the same (well, maybe a BIT higher with the ARC).

Quote:
I didn't see a foil jumping longer than me.


When I switched to ARCs my jumps DEFINITELY got longer.

Quote:
Upwind performance:
I'm not sure about it.


I found no difference when I switched. Same for the bridled foil.[/u]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 9:32 am 
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Well if foils are so great, why don't foil manufacturers put their money where their mouth is and sponsor some good riders so we can all see these benefits?

If they are so confident that they can dominate this multi million $ industry, I am sure finding some major cash for sponsorship and marketing would be easy.

I am yet to see any person on a foil doing the sort of tricks I like, even on video.

For me things like relaunch, set-up, durability etc. are all as good as I would ever need on a Tube. These aspects give me absolutely no desire to ever change. My kites rarely get wet, ALWAYS relaunch (on the rare occaisions I need to relaunch) and NEVER fall out of the sky.

For me, handling is most important. I find foils fly through the window way too fast, and I don't like their handling characteristics.

And one point made is wrong in my view:

4 years ago - the Wipika classic was a crap kite in terms of handling, upwind and hangtime, but was user friendly. Foils were better back then in upwind and hangtime. Tubes have advanced so much since. Foils have not advanced nearly as much, and in my view the gap between tubes and inflatables grows every year with tubes way out in front.

The various tube kites offer distinctively different handling to suit different riding styles. Foils cant compare when it comes to handling for floaty, forgiving tricks and transitions.

Show me a foil rider with smooth riding style? Show me a rider busting huge airs, floaty transitions, board-offs, wakestyle moves, kiteloops all on the one kite?

99% of foil riders I have ever seen cruise back and forth on a huge directional, and then pack-up when the wind picks up when we just sheet out and go higher. This is not good for foils image...

The ARC series of kites seem like the RAM's with the best handling in terms of floaty tech tricks. BUt even ARCS are soggy, dull and unresponsive compared to tubes. Tube designers main aim for the last few years is to make the structure more and more rigid. Tubes handling and stability has improved 1000% as a result. Foils (including ARCS) have zero rigidity. And this ain't changing unless they include spars or TUBES in their kites.

If you love your foils like you love your vintage car then good for you. But mark my words, they will never overtake tubes in terms of handling or popularity.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:19 am 
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I know that you can launch at the wind window , but why are not all doing it? Until now I only saw Armin doing it.
Maybe it is faster to launch it from the powerzone, but when I see the guys getting ready to do it, I always close my eyes, since I can't watch it.
:shake:

And I don't need to fly my kite a while until it is filled with air.
When it is up it is up and I can go.
But I guess it is all about being used to it and therefore we love, what we fly. Something new is always different, since we are not used to it.

Greets
Toby


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:53 am 
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toby i cant imigine why you want to side launch when the visceral thrill of downwind launching a 9m foil in 30mph winds, like yesterday, can be had.

its often the high point of my day.....
doh...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:23 pm 
Insight? seems like the same arguments to me, some I agree with, some I dont.

I think the future lies with autosheeting kites, similar to windsurfing sails that spill wind in extreme gusts, with the combined benefits of both technologies - IMHO


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