Why are Kite Lessons so expensive in the US???

[IanNJ]

Our school is a fully insured school. We also have the over head of new kites for students use, boat costs some other perks ect ect

In a few places i have seen cery cheep lessons like the DR- they basically use the poor kids as slave labor and 2+ year old gear that gets beat up!

Www.atlantickiteboarding.vom had partnered with a school in costa rica...the difference in price is in the US its about $100 an hour. In Costa we charge $40. However: in costa when we teach we are gaurenteed wind a steady 20+ kts in La Cruze area. In US we are not gaurenteed anything... So in the US the demand becomes higher. As the owner, after haveing 6 NEW kites a year, insurance, boat maintance fees, paying my instructors very well, wetsuits, harnesses, booties the free t shirts ans stickers i dont make a single cent on lessons (i often wonder why i go through the trouble) i make my money on sales (and everyone thinks they should get kites for wholesale) so after writing this...anyone want to buy a kite school and online busisness??

[robertovillate]

You picked one of the most expensive resorts in the US, and it's still less expensive than kiteboarding lessons in the metro NY area.

geez William,

dude, you asked and I gave you a quick example (I randomly picked Snowbird in the spur of the moment about 30 seconds after your questions doubting my comment)...most of the big ski resorts with quality skiing facilities and ski schools are the same...that's the reality man ....sorry - maybe I didn't pick some shit po-dunk ski area as an example. But I am still eager to hear your comparisons, rationale, analysis and theory on the subject.

[William Munney]

You picked one of the most expensive resorts in the US, and it's still less expensive than kiteboarding lessons in the metro NY area.

geez William,

dude, you asked and I gave you a quick example (I randomly picked Snowbird in the spur of the moment about 30 seconds after your questions doubting my comment)...most of the big ski resorts with quality skiing facilities and ski schools are the same...that's the reality man ....sorry - maybe I didn't pick some shit po-dunk ski area as an example. But I am still eager to hear your comparisons, rationale, analysis and theory on the subject.

First of all let me make it clear I do not think kiteboarding lessons should be cheaper than skiing lessons. The wind is too unpredictable and all of the support on hand (jetskis, etc.) has to be paid for by the lesson revenue or gear sales. A ski resort already has the ski patrol, lifts and lodge in place. Also group lessons are a lot more practical on a slope than in the water and those lessons can be an economical way to learn.
Looking at large mountains in the northeast, e.g. Stratton, private lessons appear to be about the same or cheaper than a semi-private (time split between two students) kiteboarding lesson. There are also a number of mountains with legitimate beginner instruction for much less (and you don't need a big mountain to learn the basics) So I don't think you can say kiteboarding lessons are cheaper than skiing lessons.

[robertovillate]

OK, WIlliam, thanks for your viewpoint. My apologies if I misconstrued your comments to suggest that kitesurfing lessons are excessively expensive...or am I still getting you wrong on this?

Just to clarify my position - When I teach I can do a small group in the first lesson, but then the lesson always lasts longer. I have taught a "Lesson 1" with as many as 4 people but that is a rare situation and I only do that in special circumstances where the group is made up of friends specifically wanting to do it together...but for 4 people the Lesson 1 session could drag out for 5-6 hours or more, and I don't really like to do that for many reasons...mostly I try to do 1 on 1 whenever possible. I see many other "schools" teaching 3-4 students for 3 hrs and selling them on the belief that they got a full 3-4 hr lesson. I suppose it's semantics, but again I think that concept is a complete rip-off. IMO they got a 1.5 hour lesson at best.

Lesson #1 is primarily land/beach based with possibly ending with some body dragging and self rescue training if time & conditions allow. The extra time is needed to make sure everyone gets the same level of instruction and attention...believe me this take a lot of time and energy.

For Lesson #2 and beyond I only like to work 1 on 1. I feel that it this is the best way to be as effective as possible and to give the customer the best value for their money and the safest approach for the student, and anyone else on the beach or on the water. It also reduces stress on me because having more than one student with a kite in the water can be very hectic. Also if multiple students differ in weight by 20-30 lbs that can present another problem with equipment selection.

That said, I looked quickly at the mountain you mentioned (Strattons) lesson program. It's a pretty good mountain, I agree. Private instruction is $329usd for 2.75 hrs plus over $90usd for a lift ticket, plus rental gear if you don't have your own. (I am not sure if they add tax on any of those items ?) As mentioned before, you might actually get about 1.5 hours of actual instruction in that time...so combining the costs (not including rental gear) the ski lesson costs almost $250/hr and that is only factoring 1/2 the cost of the lift ticket and no rental gear....hmmmm

The other thing to note is that these ski instructors are on the grinding wheel and the lesson starts and stops promptly according the the time set for the lesson. When the lesson is over the next time you might see or speak to your instructor might be in the lodge where you are expected to tip him/her and buy him drinks and dinner.

Aside from the kitesurfing lesson itself I usually have already offered tons of advice over the phone/internet or on the beach beforehand and also always provide lots of support long after the lesson. So I'm not at all worried that people aren't getting value for their Munney...sorry...hahhaa

But anyway the OP's question is basically "why are kitesurfing lessons so expensive in the USA"...I tried to make my point from my perspective of having taught in over 8 major kitesurfing destinations around the world over 10 years, receiving different pay scales in many places. I'm still wondering what your thoughts are because the gears seemed to have gotten jammed on the ski instruction comparison. I'm sorry if that confused matters.

[Gjertson]

Just a thought, but think about how much an hour we pay for plumbers and electricians in the US.

[JS]

I'm not up to date on the cost of kiteboard lessons. However...

Often when someone suggests that the cost of a particular product or service is too high, I suggest to them that it surely then is an open door to a great business opportunity. However, if more people don't walk through that open door, thereby increasing competition and reducing prices, then perhaps the prices weren't too high after all.

There are undoubtedly some industries that remain less competitive than others over time, and therefore seem unreasonably expensive. In many cases, I suspect those industries are among those perceived to be less easy, fun or glamorous, and therefore don't attract as much competition. For example, I suspect there are higher wages and profits available in trauma-scene remediation than there are in restaurants.

[William Munney]

OK, WIlliam, thanks for your viewpoint. My apologies if I misconstrued your comments to suggest that kitesurfing lessons are excessively expensive...or am I still getting you wrong on this?
.

No. I think it's an expensive proposition to provide the lessons especially in areas with rather unreliable wind. The comparison to ski lessons is valid in that it costs money to provide competent one on one instruction, if anything we might expect KB instruction to be far more expensive per hour- however from a student's point of view it costs a lot more to get kiteboarding instruction and you need a lot more instruction. Most beginners to skiing or snowboarding do not opt for hours of private instruction if they get professional instruction at all. For advancing skills, there are many season long clinics available with small groups that end up costing very little per hour. There is no parallel in KB that I know of, and maybe that's just due to the nature of the beast.

The bottom line is that the cost of instruction is more of a barrier to participate in kiteboarding than snow sports.

[robertovillate]

I understand what you are saying William and I somewhat agree with you. It is probably true that it's easie to strap on a snowboard or skis and wing it than doing the same with kiting...maybe it's even a luxury to have ski lessons at all. I spent a lot of time as a kid taking ski lessons, many years of them to get good, racing camp, semi-private clinics, etc...I probably spent $10,000 over 20 years on ski coaching and camps...and I still sucked!!! haha Unfortunately some people still insist on learning to kite without proper instruction but the consequences can be a lot more of a problem..

for example, 2 weeks ago I encountered a guy flying his new 14m Slingshot kite on the beach in light wind. He was doing OK but clear he was a beginner. He comes and asks me some fairly basic questions about riding and equipment...of course he has no clue. I ask him have you had lessons..."no"...are you planning on it?..."no, I am watching videos"..thats not really a substitute for good lessons I explain to him that when it's windy and wavey here things can get tricky and if he has an accident and puts other people or beach access at risk he might not be too popular with the locals..."ok, I think I can figure it out myself". So much for giving friendly advice....oh by the way you're welcome...

a week later it's blowing pretty hard and good size waves on the outside and a bunch of people are riding in between the pier arms in the "pro pool"...I arrive and am immediately informed that some knob put his kite on top of the Coast Guard station!!!! Take 1 guess at who it was...Nice one bro!...while I am rigging the muppet comes up to me (probably because I was talkative the first time )smiling and acting like nothing is wrong. I just shook my head and focused on rigging. The ignorant part of this is that this guy can clearly afford 2 lessons but he has to be a total ass about it anyway.

Encountered another guy last week...I was out riding the waves and watched him on the beach trying to self launch (an Epic 8m kite) for 2 hours in 18+ kt wind, while other people are strolling the beach downwind of him. My 80 y.o. mum happened to be in the car park there watching and SHE told me he was having problems...that cracked me up...and she "felt sorry for him...can you help him?". I just said he obviously doesnt know what he's doing....ok, so I asked HIM if he had lessons "yes"...who with what's the instructors name? "the local shop...can't remember his name"...Well, I said either you have a bad memory or they didnt teach you shit and I would get your money back...I told him I'll probably pull his plug next time I see this happening... And then I had to watch him fumble around for the next hour until the sun set hoping he wouldnt do anything stupid, because it's hard for me to leave the beach sometimes when there is a potential for someone to have an incident.

okay, sorry I am straying a bit, but the point here is about lesson quality, time, etc...William Munney mentioned something about "students point of view"...I think the "perceived" cost of kite instruction and getting into the sort is high...but when you amortize the cost of good lessons, 2 kites, a board, harness, wetsuit, etc...which you will probably get 3-4 years of use out of minimum...the cost of 1 year of kiting is about 1/2 the cost of a typical 1 week ski holiday. These numbers are different for everyone, obviously the more you ride the better the numbers look. But even if you only did 20 sessions/year it works out to $50/session or less...and if you sell your gear for 40% of what you paid for it that number gos down to $30/session. If you ride over 100 days/year the number goes down to a ridiculously low number.

So the lesson component of this...assuming you stick with it for 5 years, ride, 50 session/year is something like $2.40/session (based on a 2 lesson x $300 course). I think if you break it down like that the cost look pretty affordable by comparison to almost anything else. And there are very few things as satisfying as kiteboarding...right???

re: cost barrier...maybe you're right. While I have been an instructor for a few years I actually could care less if more people get into the sport or not, except that it might help reduce the cost of equipment and keeps the technical developments rolling. Otherwise I just wish that those getting into it will be responsible enough to get lessons to protect themselves, other people, and minimize the jeopardy to beach access for myself and others.

[robertovillate]

To address Touche and his original comments more directly:

Saying that prices are lower in the Eurozone is a very broad statement...a lot may also depend on which country you are in,

for example:
Tarifa, one of the most popular kite destinations in Spain, where pricing should be very competitive, right? but you will still find rates there consistent or even more than in the USA, see for yourself:
http://www.dragonkiteschool.com/en/less ... ing-course

Croatia: where you would think the prices are cheaper...??? I read 465 eu (= $628 usd) for 6 hrs of lessons http://neretvakiteboarding.com/kite_tea ... ogram.html

Greece: 10 hrs private 390-440 euro ( $525-$595 usd) or if by the hour 70-100 eu/hr ($94 -$135/hr) http://www.paroskite.gr/kitesurf/kitesurf-lessons/

Again, these examples were quickly and randomly googled in a few minutes...there was no cherry picking.. I imagine there are places where you can get less expensive lessons in Europe, but probably much better prices generally in Egypt, Morrocco..or go to Asia.

So before anyone goes running off to Europe to cash in on cheap lessons they should do some research first. Of course the travel experience is awesome, but not cheap either. And unless you ask for a private lesson or bring your own lesson partners you will most likely be thrown randomly into a mixed group, hopefully not the kind that ends in tragedy as was the case recently in a French school. (My comment is in no way intended to suggest that all French kite schools are that inept)

In the US there are some very affordable spots to travel to for a week where you can get excellent kiting instruction in excellent conditions - such as in FL, the OBX, and TX primarily. Very easy and affordable to travel to one of these spots for most people in the USA.

[FredBGG]

In some cases a $300 lesson is worth a lot more than a $150 lesson for a lot of reasons...and vice versa. So saying "you get what you pay for is not necessarily the case. In the US I charge $300 for a lesson (usually 3-4 hours) and nobody has complained yet, especially when they get thru a lesson and realize how much there is to it. I have taught in places where I only made $25/hr...but the cost of living there was $25/day. Also please be aware that most independent instructors do their own scheduling, provide the gear, communications, billing, etc...and there is no steady paycheck. It might be impossible to teach for weeks at a time because of improper wind conditions.

The effectiveness of a lesson is not only dependent on the ability and attitude of the instructor but it is also highly dependent on the conditions and environment of the lesson location. I spent quite a few years teaching (over 500 lessons) in a lot of different spots with a lot of different conditions, both good and bad. I've seen some great instructors at spots charging $50/hr and some awful instructors at spots charging $100/hr. But it's pretty obvious to me which combination of conditions work best and they usually include waist deep, calm water, and steady wind. (Warm water, and weather certainly help as well)

It irks me to no end when I see the local shop's instructors taking people out in the water when it's too windy, not windy enough, wrong wind direction, significant waves and current, etc. etc. If someone taught you how to ski they probably would not take you down a black diamond bump run, so why waste someones time trying to teach them in waves? I even see them trying to teach people to fly a kite in side off wind when even for an experienced kiter it's challenging (and unsafe) to keep the kite under control. Or I see them teaching 4 people with the same gear when there are significant weight, athletic qualities, and strength variations amongst the students. This is simply a product of greed or stupidity...or both.

Unfortunately students rarely know what to expect or how to distinguish a good lesson from a bad one. So this sort of scenario is IMO a big rip-off and the student should get his money back. Unfortunately, from what I have seen neither PASA nor IKO has done a very good job (actually not at all) of monitoring instructor qualifications. I think it's great for every instructor to go thru a course if possible - it certainly could not hurt - however having passed the course does not a great instructor make. I would be generous if I said I would recommend 50% of the instructors that I have observed. It would be ludicrous to assume that just because someone has an IKO or PASA certificate that he knows how to teach you...or equally ludicrous to assume that the local wannabe pro (who is in fact an awesome rider) can teach you. So, yes it's a crap shoot for a lot of people wanting to get into the sport. If you do get a good instructor you should thank your lucky stars and try to get the most out of the experience.

Conditions at my local riding spot (West MI) are pretty good in general...IF you already know the basics of how to actually ride...but there are a LOT of other places that are much better for teaching/learning. It might be really stupid "business" philosophy on my part, but usually when someone asks for a lesson here I tell them it's better to do it in a place like the OBX, SPI, Tampa Bay, or some other place that has the right "classroom" conditions. I suggest they meet me at one of those spots or find someone qualified at one of those spots. In an ideal spot a good instructor can teach someone in 3 days what it might take 3 months to do here.

It usually makes a lot more sense for people to plan a trip to a suitable teaching location and they will get their moneys worth. Of course you have to factor in travel and accom together with the cost of lessons...but in the long run you will probably come home with some real skills if you commit yourself to it. Plus one should consider (a) the time and money wasted getting a bad lesson or 2, (b) time an energy wasted trying to progress with inadequate training (c) the cumulative lost value of time at work/with family/etc and not least of all frustration and possibly injury.

It might be fair to compare kitesurfing lessons to ski lessons. Private ski lessons at a big resort are a LOT more than kitesurfing lessons...plus you have to buy your lift pass and provide your own/rent gear in many case - and your also probably spent a load of cash for travel and hotel. I think teaching kitesurfing is MUCH more demanding than skiing. As a beginner the ski instructor takes you up a ridiculously flat hill and gravity does most of the work - and there is the convenience of groomed slopes, padded lift towers, and the ski patrol to cart away any carnage. In kitesurfing there are a lot of uncontrollable variables and complex concepts that the student needs to learn. Not to mention that 1/2 the time you are in the ski lesson you are riding a chairlift sitting on your bum and not learning anything. In a good kite lesson you will learn something literally every 10 seconds if your instructor is any good. The amount of information that you should learn in a 2-3 lesson program is substantial. Usually after 3-4 hours the ability to learn has maxed out and people are tired..so it's better to have 2-3 lessons with the right conditions an the curriculum organized properly.

There are definitely things that you can learn even without wind, but obviously that's not the most gratifying experience for the customer. It's nice to have enough wind (proper direction and velocity) to fly a kite the whole time, but sometimes you have to improvise. Too much wind all the time has limitations too. But it is sort of the instructors responsibility to make sure the student gets enough time flying the kite, as well as all the other safety protocols, if the student is willing to accommodate the whims of mother nature.

Teaching off the beach and shoreline vs teaching in open water (waist deep) via boat access: they both have their benefits. A new kiter should definitely be taught the beach safety and etiquette concepts because 99% of the time that will be their future riding scenario. Teaching in deep water is OK once the student can perform the prerequisites of water relaunch, body drag, and good water start basics, most of which are more easily demonstrated by the instructor in shallow water.

Good post Roberto. You make many good points. It can be very tough for an instructor when there is no wind or too much wind.


Yup shallow water (not too shallow) has it's advantages.