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Mae West & Buoyancy, should we or shouldn't we?

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CaptainCore
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Mae West & Buoyancy, should we or shouldn't we?

Postby CaptainCore » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:14 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:59 am
CaptainCore wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:02 pm
As to buoyancy, should be another thread, personally I had strong feelings about not being forced to wear it, so Mae undermines all that but she's a Seppo, so doesn't worry me. Impact vest should be enough even on fresh water if there's a wetsuit involved......
I agree with you in totality on this. But you still dodged my question as I predicted you would.
So let me ask you again:
Matteo V wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:47 pm
And in all honesty, don't you think those willing to use safety gear that may make them look "uncool", are actually more brave than those who forgo the safety gear because they are trying to look cool? - That is a big question, and I don't really expect you to be able to respond to that one. But give it your best shot, if you are brave enough.
Do you have an answer for the above? And please don't dodge this one with a reference to being OT again.
From another thread, so rather than take that off topic and for those too young to even know Mae West she was a Film Star from yesteryear. Mae was endowed with, ahem, a rather large frontage, so became a nickname for big life vests and in my banter with that water borne fashion icon Matteo V, I cruelly nicknamed him Mae West. So, I have been guilty of unashamedly ridiculing the use of buoyancy vests, which in all seriousness is wrong, but as is probably beginning to dawn, even on the dullard and pedant Matteo V, a lot of what I write here is for personal amusement and can not always be taken literally and certainly not seriously.

Buoyancy in my former world of being a competitive windsurfer was something we battled long and hard not to be forced to wear, since in many circumtances it's better to be able to dive down under, then out, than have some great bulky (particularly US Coast Guard Approved) life support device prevent that and so become entrapped in the kit.

However that said I certainly would not wish to deprive anyone of the added feeling of security one provides and better to enjoy this sport than not so it's fine by me, what's not fine however would be situations where like Lake Garda, you can be arrested and fined for not wearing one.

My position therefore is that wearing them should be personal choice and other than ironic relief on an otherwise bereft of humour forum it is wrong to decry anyone for wearing such.

It would however be interesting to hear international views on the subject, to be honest I've never been through the training process so have absolutely no idea what's even taught in the system these days...

Anyone care to enlighten us?

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Re: Mae West & Buoyancy, should we or shouldn't we?

Postby fernmanus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:37 am

I agree that it should be a personal choice. I hate the nanny state trying to regulate everything. That said, I wear a kayaking pfd for downwinders or if the conditions are crazy just for that extra piece of mind.

BTW, Matteo V is not a dullard. I know him personally and he is a good guy, so yeah it wasn't cool to give him an insulting nickname. The problem with sarcasm is that without facial or body inflection, it is often lost on people.
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Re: Mae West & Buoyancy, should we or shouldn't we?

Postby Matteo V » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:49 am

fernmanus wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:37 am
I agree that it should be a personal choice. I hate the nanny state trying to regulate everything....

.......I know him personally and he is a good guy, so yeah it wasn't cool to give him an insulting nickname. The problem with sarcasm is that without facial or body inflection, it is often lost on people.
I feel that CappyCORE should be allowed to call me any name in the book that he wishes, even if he ventures into the realm of bigotry once again. On bigotry I will call him out, but not call for his censure. I believe in total freedom of speech and support him in the expression thereof. He is an interesting commentator, and he has actually come clean on his point of view on this one.



CaptainCore wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:14 pm
I cruelly nicknamed him Mae West. So, I have been guilty of unashamedly ridiculing the use of buoyancy vests, which in all seriousness is wrong....
Thank you for the admission, though I do not feel you have been cruel to me. The voice you presented in this post is very much in-line with your usual voice on this forum. And thank you for clearing the air on this topic so that no kiter fears ridicule for using any form of safety equipment they choose. And again Cappy, I believe you to be an interesting forum participant who sparks much conversation. It is good to have you here as you bring to light much of what many of us suspect about COREporate kiteboarding.



CaptainCore wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:14 pm
It would however be interesting to hear international views on the subject, to be honest I've never been through the training process so have absolutely no idea what's even taught in the system these days...

Anyone care to enlighten us?
The battle on PFD's in windsurfing had one foundational piece of reasoning that made it possible to convince authorities that there should be no requirement to wear a PFD on a windsurfer. That foundation was that the board was unsinkable, and the best (most visible) lifesaving device. The ability to quickly get back to the board was the key to there being no requirement to wear a PFD.

Kitesurfing, unfortunately is different, and that battle has yet to be fought. That battle, when it is finally fought, will not have the advantage of the board being a lifesaving device.

My take on both:
The decision on windsurfing was a just one. For kitesurfing, good swimming skills should be the per-requisite to kite lessons. A PFD should not be a substitute for the ability to swim back, unaided. Given that US Coast Guard approved PFD's have enough flotation to possibly pose a danger in ocean surf, no legislation should be passed requiring their use in surf, or any other conditions.
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Re: Mae West & Buoyancy, should we or shouldn't we?

Postby CaptainCore » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:37 am

fernmanus wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:37 am
I agree that it should be a personal choice. I hate the nanny state trying to regulate everything. That said, I wear a kayaking pfd for downwinders or if the conditions are crazy just for that extra piece of mind.

BTW, Matteo V is not a dullard. I know him personally and he is a good guy, so yeah it wasn't cool to give him an insulting nickname. The problem with sarcasm is that without facial or body inflection, it is often lost on people.
I think even I would wear one for kayaking, all that tipping upside down and having to flip back up again, and a helmet, I use a kayak helmet for kiting, they are not always felt to be 'kewell' in certain quarters, but I have always had trouble giving a damn.

As to the dullard and pedant, it is often the way that those of us with a 'trollish' nature are actually not bad guys in real life, but he's not been here. He deliberately acts the dullard (Dullard in the sense slow to understand or deliberate in not understanding) particularly in his assumption of the CORE porate world of kitesurfing which does not exist in my particular world. In point of fact up until very recently you couldn't be faced with a more anti corporate person than my jolly good self. Sadly that has now changed and once more I find myself faced with the inevitability of the world of Corporate acquisition and from a Kayak Corporation of all things who would have thought it.

To qualify that, there is a company called Tahe who have recently acquired the majority shareholding not only in Core, but Bic Sport of all things so what the future will bring with all that, nobody can be sure and could be the dullard may be proved correct, but in a predictive sense, not a current and actual one.

Returning to buoyancy, sounds like we're pretty much all on the same page.

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Re: Mae West & Buoyancy, should we or shouldn't we?

Postby CaptainCore » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:41 am

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:49 am

Kitesurfing, unfortunately is different, and that battle has yet to be fought. That battle, when it is finally fought, will not have the advantage of the board being a lifesaving device.

My take on both:
The decision on windsurfing was a just one. For kitesurfing, good swimming skills should be the per-requisite to kite lessons. A PFD should not be a substitute for the ability to swim back, unaided. Given that US Coast Guard approved PFD's have enough flotation to possibly pose a danger in ocean surf, no legislation should be passed requiring their use in surf, or any other conditions.
No argument from me on this one, we are for once in full and total agreement, well done Mae you can remove the cap with the D on it and come back out of the corner and join the rest of the class. :wink:

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Re: Mae West & Buoyancy, should we or shouldn't we?

Postby Greenturtle » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:52 pm

Ive spent half my life wearing a pfd. I have rescued people from drowning in critical situations in my youth as a whitewater guide (mostly other guides) and I have in turn also been rescued from drowning. In the river sports world, someone not wearing a pfd is considered to be a complete kook, ignorant, an idiot- by anyone with real experience. Same goes for helmets in most circumstances.

I realize that Kiteboarding generally does not take place on rivers with any real current and lots of rocks, however consider the following-

I can swim like a fish for two miles before I even start to slow down. That DOES NOT, in any way, make me able to swim or even keep my head above water when I am injured. Is there a possibility of injury while kiteboarding? Is there? In any session? Every session? How deep does water have to be to drown when you are unconscious or hurt badly? How long do you live after your face is in the water? What technology is readily available that can lessen the risk?

Its easy to think you are superhuman or that no injury will occur that would injure you so badly that you couldn’t keep your own head above water.
Easy to think that- for someone who has not been close to death in that very situation.

Most well designed pfds have slightly more floatation in the front so you hopefully float face up but there are no guarantees.

Should pfds and helmets be mandatory? This is (mostly) an individual sport, so unlike boating/sailing it’s unlikely that a whole group of participants will end up on the water not wearing them because the leader said its ok not to. With kiteboarding the risk is basically yours and yours alone. If you want to repeatedly put yourself in a situation where, if you become unconscious suddenly you probably will die, then thats your choice.

Waist harnesses make it awkward at best to wear a pfd. But for many people a seat harness just sucks and doesn’t allow the movement. I dont have a solution. An impact type vest is definitely better than nothing and can be worn with waist harness. High hook vest works too I guess, Ive never had one. It would be nice to see some really slick options become available that work specifically with a waist harness, it could be a tall order if the vest must comply with coast guard rating etc...not impossible though I imagine.

In any case- it is not only wrong, but extremely childish, to make fun of someone for being wise enough to wear safety gear.

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Re: Mae West & Buoyancy, should we or shouldn't we?

Postby knotwindy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:26 pm

“In any case- it is not only wrong, but extremely childish, to make fun of someone for being wise enough to wear safety gear.“

While I agree with this, it is only half the story. Seems also “wrong and childish” to not wear/use a safety device because someone else thinks it’s ‘kooky’ looking’. It’s your life, take some responsibility and do what’s best for you as long as it doesn’t hinder others. :rollgrin:


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